Assault Weapons - Can we stop calling them that

[Merlin]

Soldier of Fortune! My favorite mag back in the 70s and 80s. Also was reading Survive. So funny we had no idea what we were going to be up against some years later.

And that's why I think that every detail is important. You never know what is around the corner or will be the very thing that will bring us down. We all may have different opinions on the level of damage something like this ugly name can have on the gun world. But if we can agree that it is damaging and not helping at all lets try to educate people on the correct terms to use and stop using the very one that was by design was invented to harm the gun world.

 

[Merlin]

Well I don't like it. I think it harms the gun world, and if it is here to stay it will not be because the term gets reinforcement from me. Will it get reinforcement from you?

I call them by name or designation AR-15, M1A, Kalishnikov etc.. however we spend too much time trying to "correct" people. Like it or not "assault rifle" is here to stay, the media came up with it, manufacturers promoted it in the early days, the government talks about banning it. Arguing technicalities or terms doesn't really matter much to most people, and in turn demonizing "real" select fire assault rifles doesn't help our cause as much as most think, we have a right to own them too, and once you get through to someone with an open mind, there is a place in the argument for FA as well. Don't argue what a particular firearm is called, argue why we need them, their use in home or neighborhood defense, how popular they have become, how the style modernized ergonomic features and newer materials, and that it is our right to own them. In the end we can steal the ownership of the word from the antis, it's already a popular term, whoever tries hardest to re-term them tends to lose points in the eyes of most people on the sidelines, let the anti-s look like idiots trying to come up with some new stupid scary name, then we can eventually steal that term too.

 

[Merlin]

We all know what is so called assault weapon, but regular forks cannot distinguish from AR15 to M16.
They looks all same to their eyes.

It is all media's fault to call those semi military looking rifles to "assault weapon".
Also, current situation does not help paint the ar15 well either.

We need to educate our neighbors and friends about what are assault weapons and what are semi automatic rifles.
While at it, we need to educate people about difference between ammo clips and magazines.

I think your on the right track, however I would like to take it one step farther and say the use of the name assault rifle is not correct with any of these rifles. It seems to be a trend now in the gun world to imply any select fire or full auto rifle is the real assault rifle and the AR-15 semi is a sporting rifle.

I say any AR-15 semi or a M16 select fire full auto are not assault rifles at all. One rifle is semi and one is select fire military version, that's all. If we decided on our own to imply M16's are a true assault rifle because they have the select fire selector we are still taking the bait and falling right into the anti's hands.

The manufactures of these guns did not give them the assault rifle name. full auto or otherwise. The gun world did not give them this name either. It is the people that are trying to take your guns from you that gave any of these gun the assault rifle name. I'm just suggesting that we stop giving the anti's the helping hand that we seem to be willing to give them just because the term Assault Rifle is catchy and just because an AR-15 happens to start with "AR" so it seems to fit.

 

[SSDD]

FWIW, I have heard the Morgan Freeman "quote" above is fake.

Not to derail the thread.

It is fake. It has been attributed to multiple celebrities as well. I do firmly agree with the sentiment however.

Snopes.com article

 

[byf43]

Mine are referred to as:

HBAR
6721

My SAI M1A is referred to as:
M1A or Heavy SOB. Either one fits.


All of my semi-automatic rifles take magazines, except for one. It takes clips.
That would be my M1 Garand!!!!

 

[Merlin]

It is fake. It has been attributed to multiple celebrities as well. I do firmly agree with the sentiment however.

Snopes.com article

The important thing is an America said it even if we do not know their name.

I could not care less if some actor said it. All to often we look to some over paid actor that pretends to be someone else, or some sports figure that can bounce or kick a ball to say something profound as if we need them for the meaning of life because they are so intelligent or deep.

 

[SSDD]

The important thing is an America said it even if we do not know their name.

I could not care less if some actor said it. All to often we look to some over paid actor that pretends to be someone else, or some sports figure that can bounce or kick a ball to say something profound as if we need them for the meaning of life because they are so intelligent or deep.

I agree completely. I wish the original poster would have offered his name to be used so he could be credited appropriately. I think we have all had our fill of 'famous' people offering their opinion on things and it is time for the silent majority (average Joe if you will) to speak their mind and be heard.

 

[alucard0822]

Well I don't like it. I think it harms the gun world, and if it is here to stay it will not be because the term gets reinforcement from me. Will it get reinforcement from you?

Again, the genie is out of the bottle, and trying to erase the term from the public lexicon is a waste of time, IMO ignoring it, or spending great effort to "teach" the correct term is damaging to us. Calling a rifle by correct terminology is nothing more than us patting each other on the back, it takes too much time, and is mostly a diversionary tactic in debate, not a counter. It implies that we agree assault rifles should not be owned by civilians, then we proceed to argue what we have are not assault rifles, the politicians argue they are, we already are giving up ground. Anyoone on the sidelines can look at a semi AR and a FA M16 and see a resemblance it is a stupid tactic IMO. Even though there can be value in debating technical differences like FA vs semi it shouldn't be your core argument, it falls into the emotional appeal to fear where we lose, and away from rational logic where we win. Another similar argument FAIL atarts with some politician saying "we should ban all clips over 10 rounds", then we respond "the correct term is magazine"

Like it or not, we don't own the media, they do, the news won't report "valliant gun owners defending modern utility rifles aggainst slumlord politicians.", it will report on "leaders" discussing "reasonable restrictions" on "assault weapons". We need to jump in the fight, explain that law abiding citizens do have a need for potent "assault weapons" for defense, and that they are seldom used in crime. Their ergonomics and design makes them effective for home defense, and sport shooting, but they lack the concealment and low cost desired by criminals. This way when someone we spoke to hears "assault weapon ban" in their mind they know assault weapon=good, they have a right to own them, and it makes sense to have available the most modern lethal small arms in order to defend their family. If we spend our limited resources fighting terminology, then those on the sidelines see assault weapon ban=good, "that guy in my office that offered to take me shooting had lots of cool stuff, but sure made it a point to tell me he wants nothing to do with assault weapons, he must want them banned too". I have seen this first hand, like it or not I often do use the term "assault rifle" when talking to new shooters, or non shooters, they know what I am talking about, and usually get through to them, then they in turn get through to others, this is what I mean by "stealing their term".

 

[Merlin]

Again, the genie is out of the bottle, and trying to erase the term from the public lexicon is a waste of time, IMO ignoring it, or spending great effort to "teach" the correct term is damaging to us. Calling a rifle by correct terminology is nothing more than us patting each other on the back, it takes too much time, and is mostly a diversionary tactic in debate, not a counter. It implies that we agree assault rifles should not be owned by civilians, then we proceed to argue what we have are not assault rifles, the politicians argue they are, we already are giving up ground. Anyoone on the sidelines can look at a semi AR and a FA M16 and see a resemblance it is a stupid tactic IMO. Even though there can be value in debating technical differences like FA vs semi it shouldn't be your core argument, it falls into the emotional appeal to fear where we lose, and away from rational logic where we win. Another similar argument FAIL atarts with some politician saying "we should ban all clips over 10 rounds", then we respond "the correct term is magazine"

Like it or not, we don't own the media, they do, the news won't report "valliant gun owners defending modern utility rifles aggainst slumlord politicians.", it will report on "leaders" discussing "reasonable restrictions" on "assault weapons". We need to jump in the fight, explain that law abiding citizens do have a need for potent "assault weapons" for defense, and that they are seldom used in crime. Their ergonomics and design makes them effective for home defense, and sport shooting, but they lack the concealment and low cost desired by criminals. This way when someone we spoke to hears "assault weapon ban" in their mind they know assault weapon=good, they have a right to own them, and it makes sense to have available the most modern lethal small arms in order to defend their family. If we spend our limited resources fighting terminology, then those on the sidelines see assault weapon ban=good, "that guy in my office that offered to take me shooting had lots of cool stuff, but sure made it a point to tell me he wants nothing to do with assault weapons, he must want them banned too". I have seen this first hand, like it or not I often do use the term "assault rifle" when talking to new shooters, or non shooters, they know what I am talking about, and usually get through to them, then they in turn get through to others, this is what I mean by "stealing their term".

You can either pat us on the back or you can pat them on the back. Do what you want. I do not call them that and I correct other that do. Your either part of the problem or part of the fix.

Did you not vote because your among the group that said why should I vote because my one vote does nothing?

No I did not say we can change the world but how about and if nothing more then principle lets stop using the term. The antis have enough help don't you think?

Just like the term, "High capacity mags" What is a high capacity mag? AR's and AK's are designed to come with 30 round mags so the way I see it a 30 round mag is a "Standard Capacity mag", not a high capacity mag. 10 and 20 round mags are LOW capacity mags. Saying a 30 round mag is a high capacity mag is again falling right into the hands for the anti's as well as sounds like something we should not have or do not need. You can make all of this sound like a waist of time it you want, but all of these little things chip away at what we hold dear. They are names and terms designed to plant seeds in the public heads these are things we do not really need.

If the anti gas/fuel people told you that you should have a 10 gal fuel tank in your pickup and that 40 gal tank that you have now is a high capacity tank that you do not need, are your going to go around telling everyone you want to keep your high capacity fuel tank, or are you going to tell people the 40 gal tank in your truck it the standard tank that comes with the truck and should be installed in your truck?

Stupid,...Yes. Does it shape the way people look at stuff...YES!

So no matter how small it is, who do you want to help, us or them? You do what you think is right to keep the Assault rifles you own, and I will do what I think is right to keep the semi-automatic rifles I own.

 

[seabeeJordan]

Sporting rifle not assault rifle!

 

[seabeeJordan]

The only assault weapon I own is my penis... wait a second.

That's the dumbest thing I read all day... But I like it

 

[alucard0822]

You can either pat us on the back or you can pat them on the back. Do what you want. I do not call them that and I correct other that do. Your either part of the problem or part of the fix.

Did you not vote because your among the group that said why should I vote because my one vote does nothing?

No I did not say we can change the world but how about and if nothing more then principle lets stop using the term. The antis have enough help don't you think?

Just like the term, "High capacity mags" What is a high capacity mag? AR's and AK's are designed to come with 30 round mags so the way I see it a 30 round mag is a "Standard Capacity mag", not a high capacity mag. 10 and 20 round mags are LOW capacity mags. Saying a 30 round mag is a high capacity mag is again falling right into the hands for the anti's as well as sounds like something we should not have or do not need. You can make all of this sound like a waist of time it you want, but all of these little things chip away at what we hold dear. They are names and terms designed to plant seeds in the public heads these are things we do not really need.

If the anti gas/fuel people told you that you should have a 10 gal fuel tank in your pickup and that 40 gal tank that you have now is a high capacity tank that you do not need, are your going to go around telling everyone you want to keep your high capacity fuel tank, or are you going to tell people the 40 gal tank in your truck it the standard tank that comes with the truck and should be installed in your truck?

Stupid,...Yes. Does it shape the way people look at stuff...YES!

So no matter how small it is, who do you want to help, us or them? You do what you think is right to keep the Assault rifles you own, and I will do what I think is right to keep the semi-automatic rifles I own.

You can argue correct terms and grammar, or you can argue for our right to own them reguardless of what they are called. I am about as far from a complacent gun owner as you can get, if you have been to Annapolis or Harrisburg on gun bill day, or DC during a protest, you have probably met me, and would better understand why this is a more effective tactic, especially for the public watching us. There are some technical details that we can and should correct, for me it is "super powerful calibers", "spraying from the hip" and yes, "high capacity magazines". I don't spend a lot of time arguing what is and isn't "high capacity", a 10rd 1911 mag is high capacity, a 30rd AR mag isn't, I know this. I prefer to argue that police need larger mags to defend themselves, yet a citizen can't call for backup and won't have a partner with them, capacity is far more beneficial to solitary defense especially aggainst multiple attackers than a criminal robbing someone, or a shooter executing innocent civilians unopposed where they have time to change reload without being shot at. To keep with the automotive theme, which I like, when they try to ban "sports cars" are you goint to argue that they shouldn't, or are are you going to hash out what is not a sports car by the classic definition, and instead a saloon, a hatchback, rallycar, roadster, ponycar, targa, touring car etc..

It is tough to keep equal time, and respond as quick as you need to with pro's, much less control a conversation, so you need to put out your best stuff in a short time, and reading out of the dictonary isn't the most efficient way to accomplish that for me. I do like your enthusiasm, and we are ultimately on the same team, we need all the help we can get, so you argue terms, and I'll argue logic and we can team up to better reach bystanders, and make a better case to reps.

 

[Tungsten]

As much as I hate semantics, it is important when trying to frame an argument and influence public opinion. There is a reason we have a Department of Defense instead of Dept of War; why we have the inheritance tax instead of the death tax, and why we have The Patriot Act instead of the Wipe My Ass With The Constitution Act.
As such we need to frame the argument in a better way. I say we replace the term "assault rifle" with "defense rifle."
Is it stupid? Yup sure is. But that is how opinions are won in a debate.

 

[smokey]

I've taken people that agreed with the anti-gun arguments shooting. They walked away bragging about, "How much fun it was to shoot the assault rifle", and that they want to get one of their own. It was easy to convince them of the "assault rifle's" utility by a quick familiarization with its operation. When they heard talks of assault rifles, they knew it was something good because I was able to successfully reclaim the word, such as blacks taking the venom out of N!gger by making it n!gga.

It seems we're bending over backwards to move towards their direction....it's not a "weapon", it's a "firearm". So, what's wrong with me possessing a weapon? I have a weapon on my hip. If a criminal tries to harm me or my family, I will stop them using the weapon. I am a law-abiding citizen. This should be normal and we need to mainstream these concepts instead of throwing a fit over what something is called.

The more time we spend arguing semantics, the less time we're spending arguing concepts and facts. That is a high-capacity magazine! "You're damned right it's high capacity, let me tell you why...". There's a reason the xd(m) advertised it's 19 rnd magazines, because more capacity is a good thing for a law-abiding citizen. In defensive shooting, we shoot to stop a threat before they can cause harm to us. Since handguns are poor at stopping someone, high capacity gives us the ability to continue firing until the threat stops. This may be 0 rounds fired, this may be 20 rounds through an xdm9 and a pistol-whip to the side of the head...in defensive shooting, you're against a time limit. Criminals don't care about time limits and they don't care about stopping people, they care about killing them. They have the luxury to be able to fire one round in to each person they target as they leisurely reload...or hell, just toss the gun away and use another one in their bag of loaded guns while you cover yourself with the loaded gun in your other hand. They can rely on infection and other medical complications to kill their victims for them over the next few days and are in no big rush. High capacity favors defensive shooting and is a good thing.

"Zomaghhhergg! that's a high capacity magazine"
No it is not, it is a STANDARD capacity magazine. In 1982 Gaston glock became interested in presenting a pistol to the austrian ministry to compete to become the new service pistol. Amongst the 17 criteria for the new service handgun was criteria 4, that the pistol be able to hold at least 8 rounds. Gaston's orginal design featured a 17 round magazine, not unlike the 13-round magazine of the hi-power that gave it its name. You see, the original french military requirement for which the hi-power was being developed had a requirement that the firearm have a magazine capacity of at least 10 rounds. The hi-power had 3 more and advertised it's high-capacity by being named the hi-power...or Grand Rendement..high yield. So you seeee, the magazine is standard capacity for the gun as designed by gaston glock to meet the austrian military's requirements. It's not a high capacity magazine...well...unless it's a hi-power I guess...in which case the gun is named for the high capacity magazine.....


...one of these glazes over the eyes of the listener and wastes a lot of time on semantics...the other speaks to reason and concepts to justify a need for a law-abiding citizen to possess the best tool to safeguard their life.

 

[Watkins87]

As much as I hate semantics, it is important when trying to frame an argument and influence public opinion. There is a reason we have a Department of Defense instead of Dept of War; why we have the inheritance tax instead of the death tax, and why we have The Patriot Act instead of the Wipe My Ass With The Constitution Act.
As such we need to frame the argument in a better way. I say we replace the term "assault rifle" with "defense rifle."
Is it stupid? Yup sure is. But that is how opinions are won in a debate.

I like those terms "Defense Rifle" and "Sporting Rifle" because thats all they are used for these days....Dont here much other wise...... Lets also deem and call the Media - "Instigators"

 

[Bang]

I say we start calling the AR/AK's fluffy kittens. That way when they say they want to ban Fluffy Kittens PETA will get all pissed off. Plus, it will amuse me.

 

[Merlin]

You can argue correct terms and grammar, or you can argue for our right to own them reguardless of what they are called. I am about as far from a complacent gun owner as you can get, if you have been to Annapolis or Harrisburg on gun bill day, or DC during a protest, you have probably met me, and would better understand why this is a more effective tactic, especially for the public watching us. There are some technical details that we can and should correct, for me it is "super powerful calibers", "spraying from the hip" and yes, "high capacity magazines". I don't spend a lot of time arguing what is and isn't "high capacity", a 10rd 1911 mag is high capacity, a 30rd AR mag isn't, I know this. I prefer to argue that police need larger mags to defend themselves, yet a citizen can't call for backup and won't have a partner with them, capacity is far more beneficial to solitary defense especially aggainst multiple attackers than a criminal robbing someone, or a shooter executing innocent civilians unopposed where they have time to change reload without being shot at. To keep with the automotive theme, which I like, when they try to ban "sports cars" are you goint to argue that they shouldn't, or are are you going to hash out what is not a sports car by the classic definition, and instead a saloon, a hatchback, rallycar, roadster, ponycar, targa, touring car etc..

It is tough to keep equal time, and respond as quick as you need to with pro's, much less control a conversation, so you need to put out your best stuff in a short time, and reading out of the dictonary isn't the most efficient way to accomplish that for me. I do like your enthusiasm, and we are ultimately on the same team, we need all the help we can get, so you argue terms, and I'll argue logic and we can team up to better reach bystanders, and make a better case to reps.

I'm not saying there not a time or place for what is best for that moment in time. And I'm not saying that the efforts and participation that you are doing is helping in a bigger way. I just hope that as your attending these events in your pro-gun efforts that your at least not adding to and supporting to the black mark this name assault rifle was designed to do.

Where do you draw the line? If the antis start calling the AR's and AK's the "Baby killer Rifles", will you then start calling them the baby killer rifles because it will just be easier after the main stream press has made the new black mark name for these guns a household name like they did by pinning the name assault rifles on them?

I thank you for all of your hard work in your support for gun. But I think it is also a good idea to support any idea that helps the pro-gun position no matter how small you may think it is. Your right what you say that this fight is tough. That's why ever aspect is important large and small. Anything worth wild fighting for is always hard.

 

[Merlin]

I like those terms "Defense Rifle" and "Sporting Rifle" because thats all they are used for these days....Dont here much other wise...... Lets also deem and call the Media - "Instigators"

It's all about advertizing and who's slogan will influence the customers. In the case of these rifles, the Anti's see the uninformed that could not care less one way or the other as their customer they are trying to win over and sell the idea these gun are bad to.

 

[DieselDent]

Someone set up a ''truth about assault weapons" page, can be liked to facebook.

 

[Merlin]

Another point of view on this ugly term and the powers of suggestions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdPD2M5HJ1w&feature=em-subs_digest&list=TLypWSdP9jZVM