Are MD gun ranges the biggest 2A hypocrites of all hurting our fight?

[MJD438]

This is a slippery slope argument. Owners of businesses have property rights (basic internet searches show that constitutional scholars see these are protected under several clauses of the Constitution, as well as under Amendments 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, and 14), just as much as gun owners have 2A rights. Which rights outweigh the others?

If one doesn't like the decisions/policies of a business owner, one is free not to partake of the services offered by said business owner.

 

[davsco]

I understand this happens in other states as well. I'm just saying if the gun community is all for the carrying of guns and the 2A, then key players like gun ranges should lead by example proving this point. I guess the problem is that the gun ranges are leading be example, but the example they are telling the world is that the antis are right and guns are to dangerous to carry.

maybe i wasn't clear enough, but i am definitely agreeing with you, and just saying it's a problem outside of maryland as well.

 

[Merlin]

Evidence has shown that the fear of "Blood in the Streets" has never happened in any other state. It would be a safe bet that the same will be true of Maryland.

Right you are. It will be true everywhere in Maryland and blood WILL NOT RUN IN THE STREETS to include gun ranges. I would hope the gun ranges would show the world this by not having these anti gun rules. Not to be confused with range safety rules. I'm talking about walking from your car into a gun range while properly/safely carrying concealed.

Like we keep telling the state that we can do.

 

[NY Transplant]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought from previous threads that the problem with some indoor ranges was not so much walking in with a loaded gun but walking in with magazines preloaded; you had to wait until you got to your lane before you could load up nya magazines.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , I find it mildly irritating. BUT indeed it is well within their rights to operate their range/ gun store as they see fit.

And BenL did indeed hit upon THE major factor. Pretty much everywhere else one goes about their bussiness with their handgun IN their holster , unless their is a sudden need to pull it on purpose for self defense. At a range / slash gunstore the bussiness is About the guns themselves , and the handling and/or firing of them. People are in the mindset of firing , fondling, testing , etc of them. Once they routinely come out to compare , demonstrate technique , test the handling , dry fire it only takes one layer of screwup to have an ND instead of 3 or 4 .

In a ideal situation there might be allowance for offduty LE and/ or permit holders to have them " In holster & stay there " but it doesn't rise anywhere to the level of major insult or disrespect of our rights.

Of various assinine Gun Range Policies this is way at the bottom of the list.

As always , if you don't care for their policies or attitudes, vote with your feet and take your patronage else where. But I would be much more inclined to do so in regards to such policies as styles of paper targets , restrictions on rate of fire , or drawing from holster.

 

[davsco]

This is a slippery slope argument. Owners of businesses have property rights (basic internet searches show that constitutional scholars see these are protected under several clauses of the Constitution, as well as under Amendments 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, and 14), just as much as gun owners have 2A rights. Which rights outweigh the others?

If one doesn't like the decisions/policies of a business owner, one is free not to partake of the services offered by said business owner.

no one is saying the gun stores don't have a legal right to ban carrying on their premises. they clearly have that right just as does any other store or personal residence.

the issue is that guns are the gun store's business and the store should do all it can to promote the sale and proliferation of firearms and of course their safe use. if the gun store doesn't trust its own customer, why should any restaurant, shopping center or the government at large trust him?

 

[Merlin]

maybe i wasn't clear enough, but i am definitely agreeing with you, and just saying it's a problem outside of maryland as well.

I understand and know that you are on my side and I thank you as well as all 100% progun people will thank you. Sometimes I do not make myself clear. The people I was talking about was not you.

I liked the point that you made by pointing out how a gun friendly business deals with carrying guns onto their property. Here in Maryland where we are fighting for the right to carry who should be more progun carry then a gun range. But sadly they are not.

The gun ranges I have been to even take it a step farther by telling off duty LEO's that they can't even carry when on their property. Maryland does not even do that.

 

[dlmcbm]

I got that because Maryland tells us it is to dangerous for us to carry guns. I'm sure you disagree with Maryland telling us that. But then you agree when a gun range tells us the same thing.

And the reason you point out of why it is a good idea at a gun ranges is among the SAME exact reasons Maryland and the anti-gum movement tell us it is a bad idea to let us carry.

All of the anti-gun supporters in Maryland will stand right next to everyone that agrees these rules are a good idea at the gun ranges. But the antis are not the hypocrites, we are. The antis tell us guns are unsafe everywhere. They do not change from place to place. But some hear are saying guns are unsafe at a gun range but when the topic turns to ccw we then say guns are safe?

Now safety rules are a good idea at a range. Rules like when at the firing line you gun should always be pointing down range. No horse play with a gun and so on. But not permitting someone from walking from their car into the range properly carrying concealed in the right manner, this is not a safety thing, this is a anti gun police state thing.

As others have stated, you are making a case why Maryland should remain a “May Issue” state. Utopian society does not exist; therefore there will always be criminals out there. But you should not assume that all gun owners are guilty until proven innocent.

I would not let just anyone walk into my house with a loaded gun unless I knew them PERIOD. If you are suggesting that I am making a case for the state by saying that and that I am anti-2A because of that then I guess it's time to sell my guns and change my last name to Brady. The range owner has just as much right as I do with my house. If you don't like it then don't come over.

You having a permit walking into the gun range locked and loaded....is that safe? probably. The thug that just killed 2 people and needs more ammo walks into the range to buy or maybe steel more. Is that safe? NO. I guess they would rather not pay a bouncer to stand at the door to check everyone so its in there best interest to have everyone obey the same rules. Oh man you did it again.... you made me say an anti 2A statement.

 

[Merlin]

no one is saying the gun stores don't have a legal right to ban carrying on their premises. they clearly have that right just as does any other store or personal residence.

the issue is that guns are the gun store's business and the store should do all it can to promote the sale and proliferation of firearms and of course their safe use. if the gun store doesn't trust its own customer, why should any restaurant, shopping center or the government at large trust him?

I can't thank you enough to see these trees standing in the way of the forest.

Some people here are saying they do not blame a range for having a rule that tells us they do not want anyone carrying. It may place their 20-30 customers in danger.

So how do we tell the state of Maryland to trust us with carry permits as tens of thousands of people carry everywhere in the state around all Maryland residents? If the Maryland gun ranges do not think safe carry is possible (being guns people) why should the state think it's possible?

 

[MJD438]

I can't thank you enough to see these trees standing in the way of the forest.

Some people here are saying they do not blame a range for having a rule that tells us they do not want anyone carrying. It may place their 20-30 customers in danger.

So how do we tell the state of Maryland to trust us with carry permits as tens of thousands of people carry everywhere in the state around all Maryland residents? If the Maryland gun ranges do not think safe carry is possible (being guns people) why should the state think it's possible?

We, the voting public, educate our lawmakers and insist that they, the government actors, interpret the 2A based on its plain language and apply it in accordance with the 14A based on its plain language.

The private business argument you are throwing is a canard - talk about not seeing the forest despite all the trees. If you want them to change their stance, go talk to them about it and tell them that they will not receive your business unless they change. At least then you will have the answer from the business owner(s) about why they have made the property rights choices that they have made in their policies.

 

[Baumer]

I've seen the same "no loaded weapons" signs at ranges outside of MD and had similar thoughts/concerns about the message that sends. Even worse I've seen it at ranges that routinely conduct CHP classes. So even after providing a customer the training they still ban them from carrying.

I think it's going to be a tough to convince a restaurant or store owner that they should permit concealed carry in their place of business when those who are most familiar with firearms ban them from theirs, particularly if safety is cited as the primary rationale.

I understand that ranges are in a unique position since the majority of their customer are likely showing up with a weapon, and basic gun safety rules dictate that those weapons should be unloaded and cased, however I also think an exception should be made for a CHP permit holders carry weapon.

 

[Mooseman]

I see validity in both sides of this argument (discussion). On the one hand, gun ranges are for gun guys. You would think they would even allow open carry once inside, if done properly and safely. On the other hand, I am a firm believer in freedom. A business has the freeedom to make whatever rules they want and I have the freedom to not patronize them if I do not like their rules.

 

[davsco]

If you want them to change their stance, go talk to them about it and tell them that they will not receive your business unless they change.

100% agreed. see the link below. somewhere in there someone made up a business card that you basically hand to the store or general manager letting them know you will not frequent their business because they do not allow the otherwise legal possession of firearms. the whole issue is pretty stupid anyways as a robber isn't going to leave his gun in his car while robbing the store, so all the sign/policy affects is the legal citizen.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...pen-Carry-in-NoVA-(Northern-Virginia)/page203

 

[dlmcbm]

Yes , I find it mildly irritating. BUT indeed it is well within their rights to operate their range/ gun store as they see fit.

And BenL did indeed hit upon THE major factor. Pretty much everywhere else one goes about their bussiness with their handgun IN their holster , unless their is a sudden need to pull it on purpose for self defense. At a range / slash gunstore the bussiness is About the guns themselves , and the handling and/or firing of them. People are in the mindset of firing , fondling, testing , etc of them. Once they routinely come out to compare , demonstrate technique , test the handling , dry fire it only takes one layer of screwup to have an ND instead of 3 or 4 .

In a ideal situation there might be allowance for offduty LE and/ or permit holders to have them " In holster & stay there " but it doesn't rise anywhere to the level of major insult or disrespect of our rights.

Of various assinine Gun Range Policies this is way at the bottom of the list.

As always , if you don't care for their policies or attitudes, vote with your feet and take your patronage else where. But I would be much more inclined to do so in regards to such policies as styles of paper targets , restrictions on rate of fire , or drawing from holster.

This is a good answer to me. these are all things that you would not do at a restaurant, grocery store, mall etc. but are perfectly normal in a gun shop/range.

 

[Merlin]

I would not let just anyone walk into my house with a loaded gun unless I knew them PERIOD. If you are suggesting that I am making a case for the state by saying that and that I am anti-2A because of that then I guess it's time to sell my guns and change my last name to Brady. The range owner has just as much right as I do with my house. If you don't like it then don't come over.

You having a permit walking into the gun range locked and loaded....is that safe? probably. The thug that just killed 2 people and needs more ammo walks into the range to buy or maybe steel more. Is that safe? NO. I guess they would rather not pay a bouncer to stand at the door to check everyone so its in there best interest to have everyone obey the same rules. Oh man you did it again.... you made me say an anti 2A statement.

Again, no one is saying you or the gun range owner does not have the right, But your pointing out the same thing that Maryland is pointing out. How can you say Maryland is wrong when they do it but you are right when you do it?

How can we say Maryland should trust us and then turn around and say you don't blame the gun ranges for not trusting us?

You will not just let anyone carry into your house unless they meet your rules. Maryland does the same thing. We are trying to show Maryland people in general can be trusted with permits as they are in 40+ states in the US.

And I did not make you say anything. If you said a anti statement then maybe you do believe some of what the anti's are saying. Take responsibility for your own action by standing by all that you say.

I say guns are either safe or they are not safe. As part of the gun community we can't say it should be OK to carry everywhere in Maryland but a gun range. If anything our gun ranges should be proving the point that people should carry, not proving the point that rules should be made to prevent people from carrying as they do now.


And Again, I'm not saying that any business owners (or home owners) does not have the right to say that they do not want loaded guns on their property. I can respect the owner of a auto parts store saying that. The owner of a dry cleaner saying that, but I have a hard time respecting the owner of a gun range that is profiting off of the gun people that are fighting for the right to carry in Maryland to not only have no carry gun rules, they are more strict then Maryland by including off duty LEO's from carrying as well.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I think the no loaded weapons signs are prevalent in gun stores/ranges because people are more likely to handle/display their firearm. I think the logic is that if a guy comes in wanting to shoot the gun he is carrying, then he has to unload it, and load it with whatever ammo he plans to use. Hence more live weapons being handled. However this shouldn't be an issue, because loaded guns make money at ranges. For the record I disagree with the no loaded guns signs, I think they feed the antis agenda, and are stupid. However I respect the private business owners request. To me, I'm not worried about carrying in a gun shop/range, because all the employees are carrying, and I feel safe. In a grocery store, I want my pistol. In a bank, I want my pistol. In a gun range the employees are packing, so I feel cozy. I repeat that, because its my whole point. Places where the want everyone disarmed, well ill take my business elsewhere if convenient.

 

[dlmcbm]

I think the no loaded weapons signs are prevalent in gun stores/ranges because people are more likely to handle/display their firearm. I think the logic is that if a guy comes in wanting to shoot the gun he is carrying, then he has to unload it, and load it with whatever ammo he plans to use. Hence more live weapons being handled. However this shouldn't be an issue, because loaded guns make money at ranges. For the record I disagree with the no loaded guns signs, I think they feed the antis agenda, and are stupid. However I respect the private business owners request. To me, I'm not worried about carrying in a gun shop/range, because all the employees are carrying, and I feel safe. In a grocery store, I want my pistol. In a bank, I want my pistol. In a gun range the employees are packing, so I feel cozy. I repeat that, because its my whole point. Places where the want everyone disarmed, well ill take my business elsewhere if convenient.

I like this answer also. Basically they have created a controlled environment. Much like a court house and maybe even more so. most have 1 door in and out and everything is cozy. Now if you could make the state like that or even the country then very few people would feel the need to carry. The state is anything but a controlled environment when it comes to gun except controlling the law abiding citizens. The states attorney said it best when he said that "handguns are the gun of choice for criminals". Then why cant I carry my gun of choice.

 

[Petar]

I would not let just anyone walk into my house with a loaded gun unless I knew them PERIOD. If you are suggesting that I am making a case for the state by saying that and that I am anti-2A because of that then I guess it's time to sell my guns and change my last name to Brady. The range owner has just as much right as I do with my house. If you don't like it then don't come over.


You having a permit walking into the gun range locked and loaded....is that safe? probably. The thug that just killed 2 people and needs more ammo walks into the range to buy or maybe steel more. Is that safe? NO. I guess they would rather not pay a bouncer to stand at the door to check everyone so its in there best interest to have everyone obey the same rules. Oh man you did it again.... you made me say an anti 2A statement.

There are many people out there that drive next to you on the highway every day. Some on drugs, some drunk, some incompetent, and some just insane. Other than just stop driving, there is nothing you can do to change these inherent risks.
If you use the same logic as you do in the gun store case to solve the situation, all you would need is a sign on your car that reads “BAD DRIVERS PLEASE STAY CLEAR OF MY VEHICLE”.



How many criminals have been deterred by a silly sign?

 

[fivepointstar]

I don't understand the logic in this rule other than its private property. If its legal for you to carry in all 50 states, carry in any courthouse, carry on school property, carry in government building, why do want to restrict those to carry on their property.

its not worth my time to argue this stupid rule, I just don't do my business there. There are some buinesses (ie like the one in Timonium) that asked CCW holders to "check in" with the desk. i think that more than fair.

my $0.04

 

[dlmcbm]

There are many people out there that drive next to you on the highway every day. Some on drugs, some drunk, some incompetent, and some just insane. Other than just stop driving, there is nothing you can do to change these inherent risks.
If you use the same logic as you do in the gun store case to solve the situation, all you would need is a sign on your car that reads “BAD DRIVERS PLEASE STAY CLEAR OF MY VEHICLE”.



How many criminals have been deterred by a silly sign?

This just goes back to a point already made. My drivers license give me permission for say to drive on any state,county or city road but not any private road. I have the choice of where I want to drive and can avoid certain places or times if I want. If you have a handgun permit it's basicly the same thing.