AR10 vs. HK91

[vetogunban]

I own a pre-ban HK91 and have been looking at recently at the different varieties of AR10s. Is there an advantage of an AR10 over a HK91?

 

[jimbobborg]

AR-10 doesn't kill brass like the HKs do. AR-10 is more ergonomic. You can still buy an AR-10 in Maryland. But, there is no official AR-10 spec, so there's a couple of standards for them.

 

[erwos]

The AR-308 is basically superior in every way, except cost. Better ergos, better out-of-the-box accuracy, LRBHO, better optics mounting options, etc.

 

[JDBoss]

I traded my HK-91 for an AR-10T in 1995. The AR is softer to shoot, more accurate and easier to clean (perhaps out of familiarity).

All that said, I wish I had kept it AND got the AR-10....

 

[ST19AG_WGreymon]

You can get a clip on brass deflector for the HK91.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I hear people say that ARs are "more accurate". No experience there, but almost all of those HK and HK type rifles destroy brass. Food for thought if you reload.

 

[smdub]

I have several of both. On the points from posters above:
* Brass: The HK doesn't have to destroy brass. A port buffer and/or a different locking piece can cut way down on brass damage. You will still get the flutes but they can still be reloaded. A stock G3 w/ its stock locking piece is 'overgassed' for wartime reliability. Not fair to compare it to an AR10 that has a smaller or adjustable gas port w/o doing the same effectively to the HK.
* Soft shooting: A different buffer and locking piece and an HK can be very soft. Its can basically be a tossup at which can be softer. Again not fair to compare a stock G3 w/ a tuned AR10.
* Accuracy: An AR10 receiver is inherently stiffer. HK stiffened the receivers of the PSG1 and MSG90 by welding rails in the slots. Those two also used a longer front trunnion to support a heavier barrel. Speaking of... A G3 barrel is a pretty spindly thing. Its not fair to compare it to a heavier barreled AR10 unless you also use a heavy barrel in the HK (ala PSG1.) The PSG1 has been called the most accurate semi-auto ever made. A bit of a marketing claim but not terribly off the mark. IIRC they guaranteed 50 shots within a 1" @ 200yrds or something. One flier was cause to reject it. No production AR10 has likely ever made that claim. Though no doubt you can make an AR10 more accurate for less money than a HK (but hey, ALL HKs are pricey.)
* Optics: you can mount a picatinny rail on near any HK (either claw mount or a welded rail.) Optic choices are equivalent at that point. Magpul makes a PRS type stock for both to get the right cheek weld.
* Ergos: HK has fine ergonomics. Grip angle can't be changed as easily but it can be setup to fit near any user w/ the right parts. They aren't all that drastically different. I greatly prefer the left side charging handle over the one in the back of an AR. HK doesn't do last round hold open - AR wins hands down in that aspect.
* Cost: HKs are pricey! Its going to cost you more to get HK trigger work done than just drop in Geissele in the AR.

Real advantage of the AR10 is the upper/cailber flexibility. HK doesn't have that option.

The answer is get both

 

[vetogunban]

Thanks to all for your input. The 91 will stay in the safe a little longer. I do have the claw scope mount with a Primary Arms 1x6 on it. The AR10 will go on the lower end of the "list."

 

[erwos]

I have several of both. On the points from posters above:

I also own a PTR-91 and an AR-308. And I really think you're giving the HK91/G3 a free ride, for whatever reason.

First, we've got the statement "not fair to compare a stock G3 w/ a tuned AR10." No one's comparing anything to a "tuned AR-10". An AR-308 with a normal gas port is simply not a hard-kicker and doesn't destroy brass. No tuning is required for that result, unlike the HK91/G3 (and messing with the locking block to achieve softer recoil often has ill effects on reliability).

Second, and rather ironically, your defense of the HK91 relies heavily on tuning it. Replace the locking block, add a port buffer, stiffen the receiver, swap the barrel, etc. In fact, I could argue that you are essentially telling me the HK91 is great because it can be made into the PSG1, and the PSG1 is better than your average DPMS G2. This is akin to me holding out a KAC SR25 as my prototypical AR-308. It's not a useful comparison.

Third, I really disagree with your assessment on the ergos as being "fine". The HK91's safety is hard to reach for normal people with normal hands, and the mag release isn't easily usable either - even with a paddle, which, incidentally, is not included on the stock HK91 (but is on the G3). Charging it also requires a surprising amount of strength if the bolt is locked, which is not true of the AR-308.

I freely admit the G3 is a classic battle rifle, and that's why I've got one in my collection (well, a PTR-91 hacked up to AK4b spec). But much like the FAL, there's a reason it went out of style and doesn't seem to be coming back.

 

[dist1646]

I have owned both an HK and an Armalite AR10T and I can say for certain that the HK was more accurate and reliable. Yes, the brass does look dirtier and the HK has a fluted chamber but, it is nothing that would stop you from tumbling the brass clean and reloading it. The AR10T was neither as accurate or reliable. I could live with the ergonomics but simply was not completely satisfied either. The only draw back to the HK is that the charging handle was on the left and it was next to impossible to use it efficiently when slung up in position. Other than that, the ergonomics of the HK were superior to the AR10T. I sold the AR10T because I didn't like it. I only sold the HK due to a long layoff from work and needed the money. Still regret selling it!

 

[smdub]

Not trying to give it a free ride but am trying to give it a fair shake (vs the naysayers who tend to quote things they've heard but don't own one.)

I have normal sized hands (small for my height) and find the safety easy to operate. I have seen people w/ small hands/short thumbs have trouble so you have a point. There are extended safety's avail. ARs have TONs of aftermarket safety levers avail too. One size will never fit all. We can have a discussion about the definition of what 'normal sized' is (what she said!)

Agreed normally charging the bolt on a HK is more effort. I have long arms so don't mind (and actually prefer it.) The later HK21-style handle does make that easier (see, there I go upgrading stuff to newer specs again) But if a round gets stuck in either, the HK is far easier to unjamb than mortaring the AR. The cam on the HK cocking handle is enough to rip the rim off a case. The AR has no mechanical advantage.

My factory PTR91SC is as soft shooting as a DPMS AR10 out of the box. I have fired other G3s that are harsh and AR10s that are bad too. Build variability has a lot to do with it. Some folks have guns made w/ worn out surplus buffers or bolt gap set really high (I've seen some w/ a rubber 'bumper' instead of the correct recoil buffer.) Many are built w/ worn out surplus parts. Just a blanket statement that "all HKs kick more" isn't an apples to apples comparison. They shouldn't necessarily kick more. That said, My G3K DOES kick more than my 91SC - downright abusive w/ a sear. Something is probably slightly off on it but I haven't had a chance to fool w/ it. There is no fundamental reason you can't adjust both bolt speeds to be similar and get similar reliability. An undergassed AR10 will have issues too. Lots of folks have had problems w/ AR 10 & 15 gas systems until tuned right. They are not always perfect out of the box either. I said in my OP that most G3s are set up w/ high bolt speed. Since there is no 'mil-spec' AR10 I think many of them have been set up softer. So they ALL are tuned by the manufacturer since there is no standard. Think DPMS uses the same gas port size as a KAX SR25? Same buffer spring rate? Probably not. I don't disagree out of the box an AR is likely to be a softer shooter.

I always tune guns (Im a tinkerer.) An adj gas block here, a giessele trigger there, a XH or H3 buffer + spring there. I don't run around in a sandbox or even pretend to. I have yet to see a gun that someone can't make better - for MY purposes. Wilson makes a better 1911 than Rock Island. We don't judge all 1911s quality based on Rock Islands (not to knock rock island!) Actually the 1911 comparison is a good one. There can be a huge difference in quality. Good ones cost a LOT more. Both are antiquated designs. Im *FAR* from a 1911 lover but wont get rid of mine just because something like a CZ is more modern and superior in nearly every way. I can enjoy them both for what they are. (and I've probably changed the recoil spring in the 1911 too)

HK paddle mag release rocks - I'll disagree w/ you there. I've added it to most of mine that didn't have it originally. Its sad real HK9xs didn't have it but its becoming the norm for other builders. You need loooong index fingers to drop an AR mag w/o changing your grip. The HK paddle mag release gives your lonely left thumb something useful to do I think its a very natural movement (and somewhat pissed the CZ Skorpion Evos took off the 'wings' on the semi auto versions vs the A1s - but I digress.)

Note I never said the HK91 is 'great'. Just trying to point out that its not some terrible thing as some make it out to be (many who are armchair commandos or who have fired a Century 91 once.) Its a neat rifle w/ a unique operating system. I'll go so far to say that is has some 'character'. Its not perfect - nothing is. Does it have an ARs manual of arms? No. Some who are so used to that will rightfully hate it for being different. Thats ok. But different doesn't make it automatically bad. Its easily my 308 that gets hauled to the range the most. Is it the first 308 I'd grab in a SHTF situation? Prob not. The first one to grab if I took another long range precision class? Nope. The first one if I had to hump it around a sandbox? Nope. But its the one I have the most fun with.

Want to talk about something w/ crappy ergos: the FAL. They have a ridiculously long LOP (for short people) and HORRIBLE trigger. Yet everyone else loves them. They don't fit me (LOP is good but that damn rear sight is too close!) I'm told I can get a longer South African stock but am a little confused as to exactly what Im supposed to be looking for. But no need to drag this post further off topic.

Note: I had to go look up what an AK4b was! Never heard of it.

Edit: AR15 mag release button isn't as far away as I remember. I tend run thick grip backstraps and had a lady friend who couldn't reach. Went an looked at a regular grip and its easy to hit. The HK button is a mile away. Not sure why that one is even there. It ridiculous to use w/ the paddle release.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

I can build an AR10 for less than the cost of a HK, and it is as accurate as the HK with match ammo.

/thread

 

[dreadpirate]

You can get a clip on brass deflector for the HK91.

Yes - I was going to say that. I have heard some folks complain that AR10s are not as reliable as a G3/HK91 clone. But I think all the other points, accuracy and ergos, are true.

[EDIT - I agree with smdub; HK91's do not have bad recoil (at least my PTR 91 does not); hell, my 308 bolt gun kicks like a mule in comparison.]

 

[dreadpirate]

And the HK-91 just looks better:

 

[Sgt6402]

Would take a Preban Factory HK91 any day of the week because of its Reliability and is definitely Accurate enough. You can easily add a 2 stage heavy buffer and the HK21 rubber butt pad at a minimal cost. Those two items reduce the felt recoil greatly. No offense to anyone but you are shooting a 308 so expect some recoil Lol.

If you want an AR10 though and don't mind getting rid of the HK91, do it. Get what makes you Happy and what you would enjoy shooting. It's all personal preference and what you plan on using the firearm for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds3zqUCduTM

 

[Tebonski]

I had an HK91 and paid $595.00 for it. Sold it a few years later. I never liked it. Threw brass 30-40 feet and dinged it up bad. Hard trigger. Accurate but I didn't like the way you charge the rifle and the bolt didn't hold open after last shot. Never regretted selling it. Had an Hk43 sold that too. Was extremely reliable and probably the most rugged rifle I ever owned. That roller bolt was intensely rugged.

 

[Combloc]

The thought of selling a true German built HK, especially in this state where you can't replace it once it's gone, is laughable.

After 25 years of use, guess how many malfunctions I've experienced with any of mine. I guarantee the same cannot be said of an AR anything.

 

[Boss94]

I personally have several of both too. I can honestly say and maybe because I'm old school that the HKs Rock !! Have had some magazine issues with the ar10s finding 1s that work has been interesting. So far metal mags work well. But not getting the same love from aftermarket plastic 1s. My ar10s have about the same punch as my HKS . As mentioned the paddle mag release is a must !! I have no issues reaching the safety of any of the ar10s or the HKs.the 1 advantage of the ar10s is the rail uppers. Other than that I have yet in my dealings where the ar10 is alot better or even a little better than the HKs. Once again it is my opinion and you're milage and opinion my very.
If you decide the hk91 isn't for you give me a pm !

 

[chooks9]

I'd rather have a G3/HK 91. Nothing against the -10, but I just like it better.

 

[TheGunnyRet]

They're Both Heavy, Fire Big Bullets, Expensive Ammo (To a Degree), Both have valued legacies, Both are Fun to Shoot...Have Both and be done with it...

I Like both in there own ways...and if you have a HK91 now that it is restricted in MD...it has a virtue...