AR Piston or Gas Impingement??

[FFMike]

I am begining to look into purchasing my first AR in the upcoming year. Since I am new to the AR platform, which do you think is the better operating system and why?

 

[Mike128]

Gas is the standard. Lots of interchangeable parts from many different companies. Piston systems are proprietary so only one company makes it and it's expensive. Gas is typically more accurate also. Just keep it lubed and you should be ok.

Piston systems are easier to clean. Reliablity...I don't know if your really gaining that much.

 

[Markp]

I am begining to look into purchasing my first AR in the upcoming year. Since I am new to the AR platform, which do you think is the better operating system and why?

If you want a piston gun, buy a different gun. If you want an AR, just get a direct impingement version. The AR platform is plenty reliable with DI gas (even if it is shitting where it eats.) If you want a piston gun, buy an M1A.

Mark

 

[mikec]

If you want a piston gun, buy a different gun. If you want an AR, just get a direct impingement version. The AR platform is plenty reliable with DI gas (even if it is shitting where it eats.) If you want a piston gun, buy an M1A.

Mark

Or an FAL.

But either of those guns are 7.62x51 and ammo costs are more.

I agree with Mark, if you want a piston gun, buy a gun designed with a gas piston in mind.

 

[Kchen986]

If you're looking for piston, about the only two companies that are doing it right are LWRC and LMT. With respect to the Hk416, I've heard rumors of Hk416s cracking in the receiver where the piston spring meets the receiver.

Regardless, go with DI for now. Piston ARs, while I love mine, cost A LOT of dough, and there are issues of compatibility, parts availability, price, carrier tilt, and the you still get carbon all over the gas block.

A quality built DI gun like a DD, BCM, Colt or LMT should run pretty well so long as you keep it juiced with lube. The only upgrade to the operating system of a DI gun, that I would recommend, would be the slick fail-zero coating.

 

[dwhaley]

I think you should go with DI and save yourself the compatibility/parts issues/expense. This is coming from an LWRC M6 owner. While I have one of the best piston ARs out there, I've often wished I'd saved a bit of cash and just gone with a high-end DI gun.

Pay special attention to the new midlength DI guns. I'd like to build a Spike's middy...

 

[c33m0n3y]

If you want a piston gun, buy an M1A.

Mark

Or a SCAR 16. Pure sexy

But seriously, I second the suggestion to get an AR with DI. That's the way it was designed. Clandestine has posted before about issues with carrier tilt on some manufactures of piston AR's. Do a quick search on the forums to read what he's seen first-hand.

 

[snavematt]

I have DI ARs and shoot them a hell of a lot more than my Sig 556 which is piston

 

[armedsks]

Nothing wrong with D.I. Both of my Ar's are D.I. Just keep it fairly clean and run trusted ammo through it.

I do also have a Daewoo and a ar180 (both piston driven)

 

[Markp]

Or a SCAR 16. Pure sexy

But seriously, I second the suggestion to get an AR with DI. That's the way it was designed. Clandestine has posted before about issues with carrier tilt on some manufactures of piston AR's. Do a quick search on the forums to read what he's seen first-hand.

I WANT A SCAR 17S!!!

Nothing wrong with D.I. Both of my Ar's are D.I. Just keep it fairly clean and run trusted ammo through it.

I do also have a Daewoo and a ar180 (both piston driven)

I run a DI AR in 5.45, nothing is dirtier than this north of Tijuana.

 

[guthook]

Whichever way you go, don't skimp on the friggin' magazines.

Probably one of the biggest fails in the AR world is cheap mags. Don't fall for the temptation. Quality mags are honestly not much more.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[spur0701]

I took an AR armorers course at the NRA earlier this year, it was put on by the US Training Center which is basically the training arm of Xe (what was Blackwater). These guys knew ARs backwards, forwards, and sideways ....they maintain all their training ARs which get the hell shot out of them during these tactical classes they put on. I went to a similar class last Aug put on by Strategic Tactical Services (another Blackwater offshoot in VA Beach) and we went through about 3000 rounds in 6 days, my fingers were sore and bleeding in some places. They claimed some of the ARs we were tearing apart in this armorers course had anywhere from 50K to some over 100K rounds through them....they've seen everything. We discussed gas piston ARs in the class and they weren't big fans. As Kchen says above they had seen and heard reports of cracked receivers (has something to do with the way the bolt rotates to unlock) as well as other issues with barrel heating near and forward of the gasport........the general consensus was stay with DI ARs.

Having said that, my agency bought HK416s last year (we had extra money and someone at HQ made a snap decision)....we haven't shot them much, and they are nice, but they are heavy....I dunno, I liked the M4s we already had, they got the job done.

 

[Russ D]

Di or die!

Seriously though Di Ar's IMHO are they way to go.

 

[retrorichard]

I have an osprey defense piston system put in by another member here, and I like it. The rifle is still more accurate than I am.

 

[FFMike]

Thanks for the reply's folks....Seems I am getting pretty much the same advice, even from some that sell both guns.... Happy Holidays, Mike

 

[Impact Data Books]

POF USA if you are looking for a piston system. They have lead the market in piston guns. When they came out EVERY major gun company laughed in their face saying it wouldn’t work, they wouldn’t be accurate, there would be to many issues, and every other negative comment you could come up with.

Well fast forward to now EVERY major company and then some are producing a piston driven gun of their own and Frank from POF is laughing all the way to the bank.

I could type for 3 hours on differences between piston guns and DI.

You will see a few articles coming out in Special Weapons for Police and Military from me on these rifles in the New Year. I have been to more then a few of these companies and I have watched the manufacturing processes as well.

I own 7 POF piston systems that I run in multiple types of competitions and I have had zero malfunctions and great accuracy as well.

I own 2 20 inch .308's, a 20 inch 6.5 Creedmoor, a 12 inch SBR in .308. a 9 inch .223 SBR, a 18 inch and 16 inch .223 and I love them.

I agree with the comments above if you want a piston system buy one direct from a company, the after market retro kits suck!!! Tested and don’t like them.

Piston guns run cleaner and cooler which is a very important if you want reliability.

The weak point of any AR platform gun is the gas block. It is the heart and soul of the weapon. Anyone remember the incident at the outpost in Afghanistan where all the soldiers died on the outpost due to weapons failures? Yep you guessed it they got so damn hot the silver solder that holds the gas blocks in place melted and they eventually shifted off the gas ports and moved making them one shot weapons.

Magazines in any weapon need to be tested. All magazines are not created equal and all lowers have different tolerances and sometimes 1 +1 doesn’t always equal 2.

Much more to add to this, I am just out of time for now.

I own both piston and DI and knowing what I know now and the results I have gotten from piston. I won’t buy another DI gun ever again. I will still own the ones I have, but I don’t see any new ones in my future.

 

[wjt1169]

...Anyone remember the incident at the outpost in afghanastan where all the soldiers died on the outpost due to weapons failures? Yep you guessed it they got so damn hot the silver sodder that holds the gas blocks in place melted and they eventually shifted off the gas ports and moved making them one shot weapons.

What issued weapon were they using that didn't have pinned gas blocks?

 

[clandestine]

Theres lots of bad info in some of these posts. A properly built D.I. AR will spank a Piston AR all day every day. The reason D.I. AR's get a bad rap is poor maintenance, crappy mags, bad lube, crappy ammo, or a weapon that simply put together with inferior parts.

Piston systems are no more reliable than a properly setup D.I. AR. The only advantage Piston AR's may have is on a suppressed system, but the right lubes and bolt carriers on a D.I. AR negates any perceived positives a Piston AR gives.

If anyone died due to non pinned Gas Blocks overseas they were probably Contractors unsing non milspec weapon systems. All Govt Issues AR type platforms use a pinned gas block, no solder involved. The heart of the AR is in the BCG, not the Gas Block/FSB. I will admit that Set Scewwed or clamped FSB/Gas Blocks are junk, and dont belong on any AR, but were talking properly built AR's.

Piston AR's are popular because the general gun public is ignorant and uninformed. They buy any B.S. gun rags throw at them, then the internet and gunshop promote the B.S. Its the same B.S. that make people think Miltec is great, Birdshot is good for Home Defense, Taurus Judges are excellent Man Stoppers, N.H. SIG's are the same as West German ones, Bushmasters are equal to Colts, and Kimbers are the best 1911's.

 

[Oreo]

I was gonna say, I've never even heard of a silver-soldered gas block, let alone running one full auto long enough to get the barrel hot enough to melt the solder. Sounds like a BS story to me.

 

[Impact Data Books]

Ok guys first off I am Nick the new guy here. Just like you guys don’t know me and my background and involvement in the industry, I don’t know many of you and your backgrounds as well.

I joined this forum to meet fellow shooters in my local area. I belong to way too many sites and I have been thru way too many of these “which is better?” debates that have turned into one of these internet type fights. The fights are a waste of time and all involved look stupid.

Everyone has their opinion on subjects and no matter how well you can prove your point, you can always be made a fool by the masses or the dog pile, which I will completely avoid here. I don’t have the time or desire to go into a week long debate that will ensue.

But let me leave you with these facts and thoughts and you can do your homework and research and draw your own conclusions.

1. Yes all issued US Military weapons gas blocks are pinned and silver soldered; Fact: However they did when they were needed the most and many lives were lost due to it.
2. The story told above is a fact and it was not contractors but US Army personnel.
3. DI systems getting bad wraps? I will give you this when they are clean, cool and properly maintained they run equal to anything. But take these weapons in the environments they are in now and the amount of abuse they see and the amount of dirt and use they get and the fact they are wore out and should have been replaced long ago all add up. Anyone who has ever carried a weapon in these environments know that little to no lube is placed on them due it becoming a magnet for dirt and dust causing malfunctions. So toss well lubed out the window.
4. Magazines are a weak point in any system and testing will throw that out of the mix.
5. The heart of a DI system is the gas block! It’s like your heart, nothing pushing blood thru your body means you die. The gas block is the beginning step in a DI system running. If you can’t get gas in the system then nothing else is going to cycle and work.
6. You mention the BCG being a weak point? Why is it a weak point? Is it all the heat, gases, carbon and what not being super heated working under extreme pressures wearing/tearing and breaking it down? Yes that is why. Guess what? You avoid all that with a piston driven system. So in the end that is a HUGE advantage over DI systems.
7. Gun writers and gun rags – Yeah there are many fluff writers out there so I can see your point of taking a lot of that with a grain of salt. But there are actually some stand up guys that bring you good solid information. I know many of these writers and I value and take the words of some of them as my own because I know the quality and character of them. But being you don’t know who is who and who is full of it I can understand your dislike for all. I can assure you this when you see something with my name on it, it is a product I believe in and would take to battle with me. I just don’t write to see my name in print or for the money. I endorse products I believe and trust in.
8. DI has been around for 50 years it has proven its worth and place. But like everything, evolution is a MFer!! The fact is piston driven systems will become the way of the future like it or not, believe it or not. It’s here to stay and many Agencies, departments and PD’s are switching to these systems for a ton of reasons other then some gun mag or some store clerk said it has a high CDI factor.
9. For anyone that is bored and has some free time go do the research for us all and post it here. I don’t have the time to dig it up. The above mentioned incident was a national news event and also came to a congress as a military review board earlier this year. Frank, owner of POF, was brought to testify in front of Congress on the weaknesses in DI systems and the enhanced reliability of piston built systems. Frank was requested to come there for this by Sen. McCain. The information I have passed to you has come from actual first hand accounts told to me face to face by the parties involved, not some internet legend story that has been drummed up. Go read up on it, it was on CSPAN and is public record. I am sure the findings will enlighten everyone.

In closing, I have provided you some quality information from reliable sources as well as references. I have been to more then a handful of shops and not only have access to almost any weapon system I want but have also shot virtually every weapons platform on the market. I see thousands of shooters using weapons and fail on a regular basis as well. I surely don’t consider myself an expert by any means; however I consider my knowledge and experience level to be high and my information and facts to be strong.

I can assure you I am not on this site to be a know it all or have the need to impress people or make BS claims. Anyone can call BS on anything you want. You can take the information like anything else you read on the net or leave it like the 95% of the BS you find in message forums.

Oh and for the record I don’t mind MILTEC, I don’t dislike 9mm weapons because I believe in shot placement, I don’t subscribe to the bigger is better theory and I think STI’s are among the best 1911 style weapons on the market.

If the OP would like any follow up info please contact me.

Merry Xmas everyone