AR for apartment defense?

[new_shooter]

Irene blew some siding off and I discovered that I live in a brick building. The walls between units are sheetrock>insulation>brick>insulation>sheetrock. A softpoint .223 bullet probably won't make it all the way through that.

Outside walls may be different from internal walls. Also, walls between units may be different than the walls between units and hallways. Seeing brick on the outside tells you nothing about interior walls.

(My opinion) In short, if a round has physical stopping power (ie: can do enough damage to incapacitate a human) it will penetrate one or more walls with potentially lethal force. Ammo selection may provide better or worse choices, but none will be 'safe.'

From what you've described, your most likely scenario is what I'd call criminal-light. Someone looking to score cash or easily fenced goods. Fair chance they won't even be armed. Fair chance they have zero interest in facing gun fire. Criminal-light is the sort of scenario where the noise of racking a shotgun could well end the encounter. I'd go with a shotgun, with the first 1 or 2 rounds to fire being bird shot, (to indicate that yes, the shotgun is loaded, and yes, I am willing to shoot) and the rest being 00 buck.

And that's it for home defense in an apartment. Anything else is fantasy-land thinking. (/My opinion)

 

[ThawMyTongue]

I

Outside walls may be different from internal walls. Also, walls between units may be different than the walls between units and hallways. Seeing brick on the outside tells you nothing about interior walls.

(My opinion) In short, if a round has physical stopping power (ie: can do enough damage to incapacitate a human) it will penetrate one or more walls with potentially lethal force. Ammo selection may provide better or worse choices, but none will be 'safe.'

From what you've described, your most likely scenario is what I'd call criminal-light. Someone looking to score cash or easily fenced goods. Fair chance they won't even be armed. Fair chance they have zero interest in facing gun fire. Criminal-light is the sort of scenario where the noise of racking a shotgun could well end the encounter. I'd go with a shotgun, with the first 1 or 2 rounds to fire being bird shot, (to indicate that yes, the shotgun is loaded, and yes, I am willing to shoot) and the rest being 00 buck.

And that's it for home defense in an apartment. Anything else is fantasy-land thinking. (/My opinion)

Not flaming you, but just wanted to point some things out...

1. You will not know if your intruder is a "criminal-light" until after the encounter.

2. Not knowing what the intruder's intentions are, racking the slide could pin point your position to someone looking to shoot something.

3. Shooting to injure might not be the best defense against an intruder who might be shooting to kill.

My mentality is to expect the worse and plan from there. Just a few things to think about.

 

[Oreo]

Keep in mind that at indoor distances even bird-shot is deadly through drywall. There's not enough distance for the shot cloud to open up much so you still effectively have a single lump of lead for a projectile. While birdshot is a poor choice for defensive ammo due to lack of penetration its plenty deadly. Its no warning shot.

 

[new_shooter]

I

Not flaming you, but just wanted to point some things out...

1. You will not know if your intruder is a "criminal-light" until after the encounter.

2. Not knowing what the intruder's intentions are, racking the slide could pin point your position to someone looking to shoot something.

3. Shooting to injure might not be the best defense against an intruder who might be shooting to kill.

My mentality is to expect the worse and plan from there. Just a few things to think about.

No problem, ThawMyTongue. I highlighted 'my opinion' because I knew it wouldn't match every ones thoughts. And if my assessment of the threat were different (say, if I had pissed off a local drug dealer and had reason to think he meant me harm) I would use a different approach.

 

[new_shooter]

Keep in mind that at indoor distances even bird-shot is deadly through drywall. There's not enough distance for the shot cloud to open up much so you still effectively have a single lump of lead for a projectile. While birdshot is a poor choice for defensive ammo due to lack of penetration its plenty deadly. Its no warning shot.

Agreed. To quote myself "Ammo selection may provide better or worse choices, but none will be 'safe.'"

 

[purplehearttanker]

Bad Idea overall

 

[smokey]

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11201
interesting test on overpenetration through meat with .223 and .308.

 

[Ruzo]

I just toss a 3/4 stick in the direction the noise came from, and check out the damage in the morning. Don't EVER wake me up at 3am..JK. An AR is OK for HD if you live in a single home with fairly wide hall ways. But, ammo companies have made great strides in this area. So a decent box of. 45acp will do some nice damage, and will still keep said damage to a smaller radius.

 

[gmhowell]

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11201
interesting test on overpenetration through meat with .223 and .308.

Interesting, but the results of the beef shoot is an anecdote, the plural of which is anecdotes, not data.

IOW, the guy who said that from a scientific perspective, it's meaningless, is correct. One test and done?

 

[smokey]

Interesting, but the results of the beef shoot is an anecdote, the plural of which is anecdotes, not data.

IOW, the guy who said that from a scientific perspective, it's meaningless, is correct. One test and done?

everything is data. Now you know what will happen if you use the guns they were using for tenderizing your dinner. It was interesting to see which projectiles completely fragmented inside of 6" of meat. Earlier posts on here showed lighter .223 tend to break up fairly reliable after a wall or two(much better than handgun stuff or buckshot) without hitting any meat. Now, we at least have some anecdotes/data on what some projectiles would do if they DID hit some meat first. Wing badguy in shoulder(~6" of meat...with some bone in there) and you know it'll probably not go on to penetrate the wall behind him with the 52 gr a-max load, while causing a good degree of tissue damage.

 

[gmhowell]

No, you don't know what will happen. Repeatable tests with sufficient trials to eliminate certain types of error. One trial on one day and another trial of a completely different setup on another day is not an example of this.

 

[smokey]

No, you don't know what will happen. Repeatable tests with sufficient trials to eliminate certain types of error. One trial on one day and another trial of a completely different setup on another day is not an example of this.

Thanks for volunteering. Post it here when you're done.

 

[gmhowell]

Never volunteered anything. Merely pointed out that the 'proof' you posted isn't. Like I said, it is interesting, and probably typical, but it is in no way proof.

 

[Blaster229]

I have read none of this thread and just chiming in saying terrible idea to use an AR in an apartment. You might need your support hand and pretty tough leveling a rifle of any type one handed, not to mention navigating a weapon that is as long as the hallway is wide.

 

[Kilroy]

It's a 14.5" barrel gun, and I learned a nifty technique from mercop that lets you use a rifle with one hand in confined spaces. However, since I started this thread I have acquired a few other weapons, so the AR is no longer my only option. Just depends on what side of the bed I'm sleeping on...

 

[Jasonshooter]

12 gauge all the way..

 

[Ruger556]

Frangible, or "soft," rounds are designed to break apart when they hit walls or other hard surfaces to prevent ricochets during close-quarters combat. Frangible ammunition represents the first viable revolutionary change to firearms science in the past 100 years. Frangible ammunition is a relatively recent development in bullets, presenting a departure from the standard projectiles in use for both range shooting and personal protection

 

[Blaster229]

You don't get the deep cavitation from frange that you get from a good defensive hollow point. Terrible defensive round that may still penetrate sheetrock.

 

[DeadIDik]

You don't get the deep cavitation from frange that you get from a good defensive hollow point. Terrible defensive round that may still penetrate sheetrock.

Depends on the frangible ammo your using. Theres some real nasty stuff out there espically Le Mas.

 

[Baccusboy]

20 gauge shotgun all the way. Don't even need no 12.