Anyone load their own personal defense rounds?

[Pinecone]

As with many things in life, it is a personal decision.

And one of the factors is how much extra possible BS do you want to put up with?

MY decision is to use factory SD loads. I see no downside to doing so.

 

[JohnnyE]

Whether the use of hand loaded SD ammo made a difference in a finding guilt or innocence, where it appears there have been few to no cases, is not the only question to consider. Another is how many times have defendants had to explain their use of hand loaded SD ammo?

Having home made ammo questioned costs defendants extra time, money and effort. Those costs come right out of the defendants' pockets. While all of these defendants may have won their cases, that may have come at great additional expense, which doesn't show up in the court records we see.

I choose to use commercial SD ammo in my defensive firearms. It takes one variable off the table.

 

[woodstock]

This stuff is laughable.

Not one person has presented any case law to support any of these claims.

There are a few cases where a civil attorney suing on behalf of the wounded or killed decided to throw that rubbage at the wall and see if it would stick.

It hasn't.

If the force is justified it is justified. Doesn't matter if it's a 9mm, .45. reloaded, a competition Glock, a flame thrower, a kitchen knife, sword, ice pick, shoe lace, battery acid or any other gruesome thing your mind can come up with it.

If the force is justified there hasn't been a single case which created a legal precedent for any of these claims about reloads or altered firearms.

Where does it stop? If you didn't use a .22 did you mean to kill him more? How about a 9mm 115 grain compared to a 147 grain? Are you going to get convicted because you had a .45 instead of a .40? How about a 5 inch barrel compared to a 3.4 where your "lethal bullet" would gain velocity and become more lethal?

It's just a silly comment used by folks who make money off of people reading their blogs, going to their schools, and clicking on their web sites.

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/books/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

and from the insurers who insure WEAR CARRY permit personnel http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/9-ways-your-firearm-can-be-attacked-court

personally, i have only witnessed squibs with reloads. FTF with reloads and port detonation with reloads. nothing that i want to have in my gun to save my life. i'll stick with hornady, they can be held liable for certain malfunctions.

 

[CypherPunk]

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/books/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

and from the insurers who insure WEAR CARRY permit personnel http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/9-ways-your-firearm-can-be-attacked-court

personally, i have only witnessed squibs with reloads. FTF with reloads and port detonation with reloads. nothing that i want to have in my gun to save my life. i'll stick with hornady, they can be held liable for certain malfunctions.

I couldn't have said it better.

Zero benefit to carrying home made ammo. Do so at your own peril and cost.

Now, let's talk about the civil suit that invariably follows the criminal acquittal.

The victim's family's attorney heard you negligently tampered with the factory 7lb trigger. Modifying it to require only 3.5 lbs of pull. You don't have a lot of asserts, but you do have a good homeowners policy. You must have "accidentally" pulled the trigger.

Dear jury, if there is simply a better than even chance that this was an accident, the "insurance company" must provide for the victims medical needs for the rest of his life.

 

[BigT5g]

Reliability and resistance to moisture/lubrication is my main concern at this point. I will continue to use high quality factory SD rounds for that reason, although I may load up some SD rounds to put up for SHTF.
From this thread and from my own research (however limited) the legality is not a major factor in my decision.

 

[woodstock]

Reliability and resistance to moisture/lubrication is my main concern at this point. I will continue to use high quality factory SD rounds for that reason, although I may load up some SD rounds to put up for SHTF.
From this thread and from my own research (however limited) the legality is not a major factor in my decision.

look at it like this, it seems many consider this a "rumor" yet, it could be a factor in legalities. this rumor may have started just as such, but sometimes there is a lot to think about with ALL the other legalities to consider. according to those in the legal arena, who have advised me, using factory fresh eliminates the lengthy forensics performed by the police. as one atty said to me, "it could be the difference of 15 hours to 15 days in lockup."

nonetheless, do as you wish.

 

[Name Taken]

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/books/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

and from the insurers who insure WEAR CARRY permit personnel http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/9-ways-your-firearm-can-be-attacked-court

personally, i have only witnessed squibs with reloads. FTF with reloads and port detonation with reloads. nothing that i want to have in my gun to save my life. i'll stick with hornady, they can be held liable for certain malfunctions.

I'm waiting on an actual case. Not a bunch of quotes from someone who get paid for your to attend his schools, buy his books, and click on his blogs.

He quoted nothing of substance and provided no case law to back up anything he stated.

I'll stick with case law that I can actually support regarding lethal force. If the force is justified it doesn't matter how it is applied. Meaning use whatever tool you have or need.

If the force isn't justified it's simply isn't regardless of the tool.

Yes you might get charged, yes an attorney (likely civil where the burden of evidence is not nigh) may try to throw a bunch of garbage and hope it works. But until there is case law to back up these statements it's all for not.

Until someone can find an actual case where a legal shooting was found to be a "bad shooting" because of the type of ammo or gun used it's nothing but blah blah conjecture by folks who get paid to talk guns.


I'm not having a "best practice" conversation here. If we are talking "best practice" I would suggest buying a good factory self defense round. But to say other's shouldn't use XYZ because so and so gun blog writer suggested it is not a factual conversation.

 

[Pinecone]

I guess you are not reading the posts. Your choice, both in reading or what you carry.

The point being made in the last posts was that even if it does not sway the balance of the judgement, it may incur additional costs for expert witnesses, additional depositions, motions, and other things THAT COST YOU MONEY IN YOUR DEFENSE.

But again, it is your choice.

 

[Name Taken]

I guess you are not reading the posts. Your choice, both in reading or what you carry.

The point being made in the last posts was that even if it does not sway the balance of the judgement, it may incur additional costs for expert witnesses, additional depositions, motions, and other things THAT COST YOU MONEY IN YOUR DEFENSE.

But again, it is your choice.

That can happen regardless.

The defense or prosecution can paint you a killer for using 147 grain instead of 115. Or +P rounds. How about hollow points? Inside your home and you grab a shotgun instead of a handgun.

There are endless "what if's". If using a factory load was a fool proof plan to avoid possible legal troubles/costs I'd be more on board.

 

[woodstock]

i think it boils down to this. you are in a gunfight with a bad guy. he is using the same caliber as you, the good guy. innocent bystanders are hit. it would be up to the forensics to determine who hit the innocent bystanders. i am not an attorney, i am just a regular guy who has paid a lot of money ensuring i am to do the absolute best in legalities and ethics concerning a deadly force encounter. to those who i have paid my money to, are legal experts, well known organizations and the insurance companies who have advised not to use re-loads for SELF DEFENSE. practice and plinking with reloads all day long-no problem.

by the way, if an "innocent" gets hit, the shooter, no matter what the circumstances, will be charged. be it the bad guy or the good guy, the bullet found to be responsible for the innocent being with have a big fat lawyer attached to it.

great thread.

 

[Magnumite]

Woostock, good post. Best one yet simply because of its directly related content and acquired knowledge.

Individuals preaching against the credibilty of recognized experts and legally informed individuals amazes me. I guess it never occurs to those preaching the ones with the schools and writing articles in related journals are hired because of their earned credibilty.

We all take in the info, add our experience and make choices. Free country. Making irrational decisions because some perceive advantage if a handload can be a very expensive learning experience. I love hand loaded ammo - except when the defensive arm is loaded for its hopefully never needed use.

 

[Pinecone]

That can happen regardless.

The defense or prosecution can paint you a killer for using 147 grain instead of 115. Or +P rounds. How about hollow points? Inside your home and you grab a shotgun instead of a handgun.

There are endless "what if's". If using a factory load was a fool proof plan to avoid possible legal troubles/costs I'd be more on board.

Your choice.

I choose to NOT use reloads or handloads for HD/SD.

Reread the posts about issues with ballistics testing handloads. With factory loads, they can just buy some.

 

[GunnerGunz]

Here is the real reason I would not use a hand load for self defense.

1. Just picked up 9mm XTP on sale with $10.00 rebate = $8.65 per box (no sales tax in Delaware) or $0.44 cents each vs hand loads @ $0.24 = I pay $0.20 more per round for XTP. Say 5 rounds used to stop an intruder. I spend a total of $1.00 more than a hand load (I'm ok with that).

2. Read reason number 1 over and over

 

[alucard0822]

Here is the real reason I would not use a hand load for self defense.

1. Just picked up 9mm XTP on sale with $10.00 rebate = $8.65 per box (no sales tax in Delaware) or $0.44 cents each vs hand loads @ $0.24 = I pay $0.20 more per round for XTP. Say 5 rounds used to stop an intruder. I spend a total of $1.00 more than a hand load (I'm ok with that).

2. Read reason number 1 over and over

There is a LOT more expense than that involved with a defensive ammo choice, or at least there should be. Factor in a few boxes to check compatibility with your firearm, a couple boxes every month or so to practice with, and keep proficient with that particular load. There is always a significant difference in group placement, noise and recoil compared to inexpensive FMJ ammo, and you also have the cost to keep enough on hand to ensure a long term uninterrupted supply. Figure going through 1,000rds a year isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, if you are stuck with $1.50 a round, 20rd retail packaged defensive ammo, that is a big expense. Sourcing 50rd LEO packaged ammo helps me cut costs in 1/2 or better, handloading practice rounds that shoot the same way(prefferably with the same bullet) can help even more.

It's been a good thread to weigh the benefits of carrying handloads vs factory ammo where the main argument so far is been cost of handloads vs reliability of factory ammo. Legal benefits of factory ammo are debateable with really nothing but opinion to quantify the benefit either way. One thing that has not been discussed is performance, or using a custom load for a reason other than cost. When Hiking, I carry my GLOCK 20 in 10mm, the vast majority of defensive loads are designed for maximum expansion and 40S&W velocities, fine for defense against humans, but not ideal for wildlife. There are few factory loads that are loaded to the caliber's potential, and use moderate expanding/deep penetrating bullets, they tend to be tough to find, expensive, and lack features like nickel brass and sealant.

 

[Pinecone]

The deal is, if you reload, work up a duplicate load, but with cast bullets. Same recoil and point of impact, but at a significant savings.

I then fire a few rounds at the end of the session of the real stuff.

Keeps my annual use of high priced rounds to around 100 per year, maximum.

 

[JohnnyE]

Agree, Pinecone. In my PERSONAL .40 cal. experience, (meaning YMMV), I train using 200 round per month of cheap remanufactured FMJ ammo. Once a year I run a 100 rounds of my real carry ammo, Win Q4369, by shooting out my carry mags at the range. Point of impact is the same, and I have not noted any real differences to affect the training experience. Sorry, I've never trained w/o ear pro, so I can't comment about that, and happily I still hear just fine!

Yeah, I get some folks frustration over the lack of a meaningful legal track record on hand loaded vs. factory ammo, thought the issue isn't just one of win or lose, which is the main point of the trial experience, rather, it's over the extra time/money/effort spent defending hand loads that does not happen with factory ammo. Unless you're paying the legal bills, you're not going to see that difference. As a party in a lawsuit or criminal trial, you always want to minimize the number of variables that negatively impact your case. This axiom isn't confined to your ammo selection, it applies across the board. Keep your opponent off-balance by having him chase frivolous issues, not yourself.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

Massad Ayoob Group MAG40 class this summer
This class will be held at the Bridgeville rifle and gun club in Bridgeville DE. on August 4-7. Let me know if you have any interest.

MAG-40:
This is an intense, four-day, 40-hour immersion course in the “rules of engagement” for armed law-abiding private citizens. The course emphasizes legal issues, tactical issues, and aftermath management. Topics will include interacting with suspects, witnesses, responding police officers, threat recognition and mind-set, and the management of the social and psychological aftermath of having to use lethal force in defense of self or others. Also covered is preparing beforehand for legal repercussions and minimizing your exposure to them. Situations in the home, at the place of business, or “on the street” will all be covered. Range work will include instruction in the use of the defensive handgun under extreme stress. Drawing from concealment, two-handed stances, shooting from cover, one-handed stances with either hand, speed reloading, and more are taught with an overall emphasis on fast, accurate shot placement. The course will culminate with a written examination covering the classroom topics and a police-style handgun qualification course. This course is a blending of MAG 20 / Classroom and MAG 20 / Live Fire but is taught over 4 – 5 days. Be prepared to shoot on the first day.

Prerequisite: basic understanding of firearms safety.

I know what Mas will tell you to do. You're crazy not to follow his advice. If you think you know more about personal defense and the law than him you have much bigger problems than ammo choice.

PS. He would tell you to use factory ammo. Preferably one that a major police department uses, local, state or federal.

 

[Mark75H]

Interested