Any input on these bullets?

[TripleChris]

On Natchez right now:

Product Title: 45 ACP .452DIA 230GR RNBB 500BOX
Item Price: $53.49
Availability: In Stock

These are lead bullets, not jacketed. They come lubed. Anyone use these? Input good or bad? Thanks.

 

[TripleChris]

Sorry forgot to name the manufacturer. Magnus.

Magnus Cast Bullets are manufactured with state of the art machinery from virgin alloys consisting of 91% lead, 4% tin and 5% antimony. This mix gives you a lead bullet hard enough to be fired at 1200 FPS with little or no leading problems in most handguns, but will not shatter upon impact with steel targets.

 

[DENWA]

What kind of shooting are you doing?


Plinking with accuracy in mind? These will be fine. Hard cast is all that really matters. Soft bullets leave too much lead in the barrel.


Target/Match shooting? You'll have to buy lots of different manufactures to see which is best for your barrel.

And if these do work well I suggest buying 5X more than you think you'll ever ever need. Companies go out of business, change their formula, molds, and worse, their prices.

You'll never be sad about a ammo purchase.. they have a better rate of return on resale than the stock market.

 

[TripleChris]

Yep, target shooting and general plinking. Possibly even low level competition if I get the urge. I would like to start, but its intimidating to newbies to get to one of those alphabet-soup shooting organization's events without knowing what to do or even what to bring.

 

[j8064]

You might try a box of Roger's Better Bullets from King Shooter's Supply in King of Prussia, PA: Nice folks, hard cast lead, good prices, shipping is not too expensive to MD, good quality and a variety of stuff to choose from. I've loaded and fired hundreds of their bullets with no issues ever:
http://www.kingshooters.com/
http://www.betterbullets.com/documents/KSS_Pricing.pdf

 

[boule]

These are lead bullets, not jacketed. They come lubed. Anyone use these? Input good or bad? Thanks.

It depends on what kind of load you have. A target or plinking load with a low velocity should work fine. If you have a really hot load you may want to consider bullets with a gas check to reduce leading of the barrel and for better contact with the rifling.

 

[alucard0822]

Lead bullets are very particular about the load and barrel they are fired in. A very hard bullet with a lot of antimony and tin might crack and lead the lands when fired at low velocities in a barrel with deep rifling, and a soft alloy will lead the crap out of a shallow button rifled barrel if fired at high velocities. Certain things like gas checks and wider lube grooves can allow a softer bullet to be fired succesfully at higher velocities, and usually result in great accuracy, the classic Keith bullet is a good example of this. Basically a Jacket makes a bullet very versatile, because the need for lube is gone, and the jacket won't melt even at 4,000+ fps velocities, but they don't seal as well, compress as niformly and take the rifling as fully as a good lead bullet, and when done right, you will have little to no lead in the barrel.

a 5/5/90 alloy is a good all around alloy, and works fine at lower velocities even when tumble lubed, it is one of the better alloys for warm 800+ or - fps 45ACP, 38sp and 45colt loads, and with a wide lube groove or gas check can be pushed harder, although I wouldn't reccomend 1200fps out of them unless it was a low pressure/high volume load.

Cast bullets not only need to be matched to the caiber and the gun, but to the powder too, there are some loads I tried that would lead like hell under light to moderate charges of bullseye, yet produce 0 leading under warm to hot charges of blue dot and lil'gun, they were going a lot faster, but didn't melt, however if I over did it by just .5gr, the entire barrel would lead quickly. There is a sweet spot that you have to find where the pressure from the powder pushes the bullet hard enough to fill the rifling, yet not to be too hot and melt the bullet, or burn the lube up. It takes a lot of load development and scrubbing out barrels to get it just right, and it goes without saying to never use cast bullets in polygonal rifled barrels like GLOCK, Kahr, and HK use.

you can also read what the antimony man has to say, he is a great source for info on cast bullets\
http://www.theantimonyman.com/

 

[TripleChris]

Thanks for the excellent reply!

Think I will hold off on experimenting with alloy composition and leading until after the basics of reloading are under my belt. Going to order some jacketed bullets for now.

Lead bullets are very particular about the load and barrel they are fired in. A very hard bullet with a lot of antimony and tin might crack and lead the lands when fired at low velocities in a barrel with deep rifling, and a soft alloy will lead the crap out of a shallow button rifled barrel if fired at high velocities. Certain things like gas checks and wider lube grooves can allow a softer bullet to be fired succesfully at higher velocities, and usually result in great accuracy, the classic Keith bullet is a good example of this. Basically a Jacket makes a bullet very versatile, because the need for lube is gone, and the jacket won't melt even at 4,000+ fps velocities, but they don't seal as well, compress as niformly and take the rifling as fully as a good lead bullet, and when done right, you will have little to no lead in the barrel.

a 5/5/90 alloy is a good all around alloy, and works fine at lower velocities even when tumble lubed, it is one of the better alloys for warm 800+ or - fps 45ACP, 38sp and 45colt loads, and with a wide lube groove or gas check can be pushed harder, although I wouldn't reccomend 1200fps out of them unless it was a low pressure/high volume load.

Cast bullets not only need to be matched to the caiber and the gun, but to the powder too, there are some loads I tried that would lead like hell under light to moderate charges of bullseye, yet produce 0 leading under warm to hot charges of blue dot and lil'gun, they were going a lot faster, but didn't melt, however if I over did it by just .5gr, the entire barrel would lead quickly. There is a sweet spot that you have to find where the pressure from the powder pushes the bullet hard enough to fill the rifling, yet not to be too hot and melt the bullet, or burn the lube up. It takes a lot of load development and scrubbing out barrels to get it just right, and it goes without saying to never use cast bullets in polygonal rifled barrels like GLOCK, Kahr, and HK use.

you can also read what the antimony man has to say, he is a great source for info on cast bullets\
http://www.theantimonyman.com/

 

[boule]

Think I will hold off on experimenting with alloy composition and leading until after the basics of reloading are under my belt. Going to order some jacketed bullets for now.

Actually there is no dire need to hold off on reloading with pure lead bullets. They are a little bit more delicate to load than jacketed ones (crimpwise) - nonetheless they offer great advantages (costwise). You need to work up a completely new load anyway, so if you have time and leisure, feel free to do so.
A couple of things to remember when using pure lead bullets:
- select a bullet diameter to fit the grooves of your barrel (or .001 over nominal bore)
- select a slow-burning powder over small loads of very offensive ones
- crimp either as a light taper crimp or in the grooves
- lubricate appropriately
- keep velocities at or below 850fps for the first couple of loads (above, consider gas-check)

Now, there are a few things that could go wrong. Pure lead behaves a little bit different in terms of internal ballistics (being pressed into the rifling) than jacketed bullets but the practical differences for reloaders are neglible. I found that lead bullets were more accurate with slower powders but the differences - again - were probably more to the way the shooter favors his rifles to shoot.
The main problem is finding a fitting OAL for the round with the crimp sitting in one of the groves. Otherwise you are at a risk to pull a bullet or two in a semi-auto or you deform the bullet when crimping (makes for a darn bad accuracy).
Worst thing that happens specifically with lead bullets (you can blow up every gun with a wrong load) is that your barrel is not suited that great for them or that you have a load that is suboptimal. The result will be hours of fun cleaning lead residues out of your gun.
Loaded correctly, I find pure lead bullets a little bit more forgiving to fire than jacketed ones. Just add a couple of them to your next order and see what they do. Handloading is also about experimenting and who knows? You might get a good and cheap load out of it.

Oh, and for the above said - everyone is responsible for his own loads. Something I recommend may not work in your gun/ with the combination/ at all and common sense as well as the appropriate literature should be used every time a load is created.

 

[alucard0822]

Thanks for the excellent reply!

Think I will hold off on experimenting with alloy composition and leading until after the basics of reloading are under my belt. Going to order some jacketed bullets for now.

don't let my post scare you away from cast bullets entirely, but yes, it is good to get used to reloading first with much more forgiving jacketed and plated bullets first.

Thing is, some of my most accurate loads use swaged hollow base wadcutters, RN and SWC. Swaged bullets are simply pressed into shape instead of cast, that makes them very soft, and basically there is an exact charge weight that keeps them from leading. Too light, and they don't take the rifling causing blowby(gasses going around the bullet), that melts the bullet as it goes down the bore, giving you leading, too hot, and the bullet presses into the rifling too hard causing excess friction, and melting also causing leading. However if you get it just right, you can come up with soft shooting loads.

Cast bullets OTOH are harder and usually have solid bases with a band or two of lube on the body and a thin coat of lube over the entire bullet, a little more forgiving than swaged, and capable of higher velocities, especially with a harder alloy like the 5/5/90 (tin, antimony, lead). Add a gas check(small copper cup crimped onto the base sealing the bore better) and you can push hard cast linotype bullets to more than 2,000fps out of a rifle. The most user friendly non jacketed bullets are swaged and plated bullets they are soft and take the rifling well, but the thin copper plating gives much greater lubrication and resistance to melting than any lube, these are more expensive than lead, but cheaper than jacketed rounds, and can be loaded quite hot before the groups start to open up and lose accuracy.

Once you get the hang of it, and especially if you are loading for big bore wheelguns, it is a good idea to get the hang of lead bullets, they can still surpass the accuracy of jacketed rounds, and being they deform more so than expand, they tend to work well on game. Then the next step is casting and testing your own which is another shooting related hobby in it's own right, and if you can get in good with an autoshop and get plenty of lead wheel weights for free, you can cast thousands of bullets for just a couple dollars worth of additive metals and lube, and have the peice of mind knowing that you are immune to bullet shortages and backorders for the calibers you cast for.

found another good article that explains cast and swaged bullets pretty well, although it is centered around rifles http://www.theoutdoorwriter.com/shooting/cast_bullets.htm

And as far as cleaning leading goes, I always run a brush through a couple times, then run a no-lead or lead wipes patch through a couple times, wait about 5 minutes, then do it again, and it cleans up even bad leading easily and quickly. I also found the lea wipes are the only thing on the planet that will clean the black rings off of the front of a revolver cylinder.

 

[TripleChris]

After much thought, I figured I would give lead a try. Well, lead alloy. I went with the Oregon Trail laser cast 230 grain round nose for my Kimber TLE II. I have a Lee hand press and a 4 die Lee set for .45ACP on the way. Also I have Wolf large pistol primers (good lookin out MD Shooters board bros) and lots of once fired brass that I have saved up, almost all of it WWB out the very same gun.

Tumble then decap? Or vice versa? I got a used tumbler, brass polish, and crushed walnut media in a trade. I also have a scale and calipers of course. I have read both the ABC's of reloading 7th edition and a Speer Reloading Manual, plus lots of online research. What I don't have is powder. Anyone who has input on what powder makes nice with Oregon Trail bullets, please share. All I am looking to do is make a load that works. No specifics, its purely plinking and learning at this stage. Thanks guys.

 

[Trapper]

Tumble then decap? Or vice versa?

It would depend on the size of your media. I have large crushed walnut shell media, and it tends to get stuck in the flash hole. I can flip them upside down and give 'em a smack to get most of the stuff out, but I found it to be much easier when I bought a batch of deprimed brass. So, I guess I would go for deprime, then tumble. That also would give the media an opportunity to clean the primer pocket a bit.

As for powder, I've been using Hodgdon Clays, not international just "Clays" and it works well for my plated bullets. It takes less powder per round, so I get maximum ammo from it. It was the first and only powder I've tried so far and my rounds have been consistent and are good for plinking.

 

[TripleChris]

It would depend on the size of your media. I have large crushed walnut shell media, and it tends to get stuck in the flash hole. I can flip them upside down and give 'em a smack to get most of the stuff out, but I found it to be much easier when I bought a batch of deprimed brass. So, I guess I would go for deprime, then tumble. That also would give the media an opportunity to clean the primer pocket a bit.

As for powder, I've been using Hodgdon Clays, not international just "Clays" and it works well for my plated bullets. It takes less powder per round, so I get maximum ammo from it. It was the first and only powder I've tried so far and my rounds have been consistent and are good for plinking.

I might be going with Unique - not because its my first choice, but because its what is on shelves around here. I am not paying 22.50 to ship a pound of powder that costs under 20 bucks. And I am not buying 8 pound jugs of anything I haven't used. Too many what-ifs.

Another board I asked the same question on gave many different answers. A few folks said Accurate No. 2. A few said Bullseye. Since I am measuring each load one at a time (and loading them one at a time on a hand press) it will be slow going. I don't need a powder designed to flow and measure well out of automatic dispensers. I am just looking for something locally available that fits my needs - economy and works well with lubricated lead bullets that have no gas check.

 

[alucard0822]

I always tumble spent brass in corncob media first, then decap/resize, it keeps the die clean, and if a grain does find it's way into the flash hole, the depriming pin will push it out, with deprimed brass that has been tumbled, it gets stuck in the primer pocket, for rifle calibers, I tumble, then deprime/resize, then tumble again to get the lube off, for calibers loaded in a progressive or turret, you can use a universal decapper die in the first stage that will push the media out of the primer pocket being the brass is already sized and checked for length, if loaded in a single stage, I push it out with a lee trimmer during the trimming process.

And Unique is a decent powder for hardcast, For 45ACP, I worked up to 5gr for my 1911, and it is a good load, little leading and accurate using hardcast made with lyman#2 alloy(90-5-5) and tumble lubed with alox, probably a little less forgiving than those bullets you got.

 

[TripleChris]

I always tumble spent brass in corncob media first, then decap/resize, it keeps the die clean, and if a grain does find it's way into the flash hole, the depriming pin will push it out, with deprimed brass that has been tumbled, it gets stuck in the primer pocket, for rifle calibers, I tumble, then deprime/resize, then tumble again to get the lube off, for calibers loaded in a progressive or turret, you can use a universal decapper die in the first stage that will push the media out of the primer pocket being the brass is already sized and checked for length, if loaded in a single stage, I push it out with a lee trimmer during the trimming process.

And Unique is a decent powder for hardcast, For 45ACP, I worked up to 5gr for my 1911, and it is a good load, little leading and accurate using hardcast made with lyman#2 alloy(90-5-5) and tumble lubed with alox, probably a little less forgiving than those bullets you got.

Again, thanks. The Unique will do just fine it seems. I re-read your comments about barrel leading and wonder what range FPS wise I should strive for. Unfortunately I don't have a chronograph, but Oregon Trail claims their cast bullets do not leave lead deposits (I take that with a grain of salt). I am working towards a light plinking load. Accuracy is much more important than max velocity, which I could care less about. Many of the loads published online have conventional cast bullet data that varies from FMJ, but I suppose trial and error will get me the best results.

 

[Blazin]

I've had good luck with S&S casting out of Illinois. He ships via USPS Flat Rate Box so it's reasonable.

 

[alucard0822]

Again, thanks. The Unique will do just fine it seems. I re-read your comments about barrel leading and wonder what range FPS wise I should strive for. Unfortunately I don't have a chronograph, but Oregon Trail claims their cast bullets do not leave lead deposits (I take that with a grain of salt). I am working towards a light plinking load. Accuracy is much more important than max velocity, which I could care less about. Many of the loads published online have conventional cast bullet data that varies from FMJ, but I suppose trial and error will get me the best results.

Any cast bullet can lead badly, or can be loaded to the "sweet spot" where accuracy is about as good as it can get, but there is little if any leading, some bullets are easier to work up than others though, and I have spent a good bit of time scrubbing lead out of barrels during the load development process with a lot of cast loads, oregon trail included. Velocity plays second fiddle to accuracy and performance, don't take my previous psts as any particular "need" for peak velocity, in reality velocity is merely a tool in that it allows a load and a bullet to accomplish something, weither it is better penetration, and flatter shooting, or on the other end, light recoil and peak accuracy. THe average velocity for 230gr in a 5" 45 is around 800-850fps, too low a velocity may fail to fully cycle the slide and can lead to jams, too high, and you get leading and overpressure. A good soft shooting target load tends to run about 700-750fps with hardcast, and will probably function just fine, or at worst you may need a 14# recoil spring for reliable function. Some competition guns can be made to fire down to 600-650FPS by lightening the slide, and using light springs. Although if you are hunting, shooting long range or silouette shooting, it can be loaded faster if there is a need, with about 950FP being about the fastest that can be had without changing parts to allow 45super or 460 rowland loads to be used with their corresponding brass, and to handle the increased pressure and recoil forces.

 

[TripleChris]

Alucard, you are the man.

Found a local retailer with HP 38 in stock. Read from Hodgdon's website that this is for all intents and purposes identical to Winchester 231, and found several reliable sources with good load and OAL data for both HP 38 and Win 231. I am going with 4.8 grains to start. Should net me a velocity around 725 FPS. I really need to invest in a chrono, but the cost outlay for all the components and equipment leaves me no choice but to wait another few weeks.

I will be starting tonight. I am pretty excited to join the ranks.