Antique Firearms

[twines]

Hey,
I am sure this is not a new topic. It deals specifically with antique cartridge hand guns. I know both MD and the Fed use Dec 31 1898 as the magic date for a firearm to be considered and antique and therefore not subject to paper work. I constantly run into FFLs who require and charge for transfer on cartridge hand guns. The confussion seems to come with this portion of the MD law

(2) a replica of a firearm described in item (1) of this subsection that:

(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This clearly deals with replica arms not original arm.

The MSP went on to like me to Federal Law stating they follow the Federal Laws concerning antique.

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I am looking at .32 Iverjohnson Hammerless in 32 S & W Black Powder . This specific gun was manufactured in 1895 only. The ammos is available through Buffalo Trace. Many pre-98 hand guns designed for BP will shoot modern ammo if you don't like your hand or the gun. Taking it one step further antique Trapdoors, many Krags, and more Winchester than I can count use ammo that is readily available and under MD law the pre-98 version of these gun should require a NICS check.

Years ago Sgt Pickle of the MSP told me Pre-98 guns and in the original cartridge configuartion were and antique. The law has not been rewritten either state of federal since I spoke with Sgt. Pickle Can anyone clarify this issue.

Tom

 

[Doctor_M]

This is correct. If it is an original pre-1899, it is antique and not regulated under state or federal law (although may still qualify as a dangerous weapon if used in a crime) regardless of ammunition type or availability. If it is a replica, the ammo availability and type is relevant. I have purchased dozens of antiques that fire cartridge ammo still technical commercially avaliable (.32 s&w, .38 s&w., .38 colt, etc.). Not regulated... although MD did try a few years ago and probably will again.

 

[Doco Overboard]

You see the problem with Krags is the model year and the fiscal year for actual production and when they were actually manufactured.
I prefer the federal government largely stay out of my affairs with any weapon system however I do not believe a model 1894 Krag just because it uses a certain form of fixed metallic ammunition should be subject to a requirement for Nics just because a purchase for another antique system is problematic.

 

[Allen65]

Hey,
I am sure this is not a new topic. It deals specifically with antique cartridge hand guns. I know both MD and the Fed use Dec 31 1898 as the magic date for a firearm to be considered and antique and therefore not subject to paper work. I constantly run into FFLs who require and charge for transfer on cartridge hand guns. The confussion seems to come with this portion of the MD law

(2) a replica of a firearm described in item (1) of this subsection that:

(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This clearly deals with replica arms not original arm.

The MSP went on to like me to Federal Law stating they follow the Federal Laws concerning antique.

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I am looking at .32 Iverjohnson Hammerless in 32 S & W Black Powder . This specific gun was manufactured in 1895 only. The ammos is available through Buffalo Trace. Many pre-98 hand guns designed for BP will shoot modern ammo if you don't like your hand or the gun. Taking it one step further antique Trapdoors, many Krags, and more Winchester than I can count use ammo that is readily available and under MD law the pre-98 version of these gun should require a NICS check.

Years ago Sgt Pickle of the MSP told me Pre-98 guns and in the original cartridge configuartion were and antique. The law has not been rewritten either state of federal since I spoke with Sgt. Pickle Can anyone clarify this issue.

Tom

You quoted the definition of antique from the NFA of 1934. There is a subsequent definition of "Antique Firearm" from the Gun Control Act of 1968. It reads:

antique firearm​

(16) The term “antique firearm” means— (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

See: https://www.law.cornell.edu/definit...rm_src=title:18:part:I:chapter:44:section:921

ANY non-NFA firearm manufactured on or before 1899, regardless of what cartridge it may use, is an antique under GCA '68. Note that if the firearm was subsequently modified (like a sawed-off rifle), it is treated as an NFA firearm, and the NFA definition of antique now applies.

MD law treats antiques the same as Federal law. If an FFL wants to run a NICS check for an antique transaction, they are actually in violation of Federal law, because under the Brady Act, a NICS check can only be run on a transfer of a firearm, and an antique is not legally a firearm under either MD or Federal law. This fact was brought up a few years back during testimony against a proposed MDGA bill that would have required a NICS check for transfers of antiques.

 

[Melnic]

The hard part of many FFLs is understanding how to prove the MFG date. Many firearms, the manufactured date (year) is not evident. In some cases, the dates are documented and on the internet, but an FFL may not trust the source for obvious reasons. Their liability is great. I have purchased a great deal of C&R out of state showing my information that the item is C&R. I have also purchased a couple Pre 1899 rifles that I knew based on documentation was cash and carry but the shop still did a 4473.

 

[Growler215]

Surprised "prohibited persons" haven't already bought all of the pre-1899 firearms.

Oh, wait, maybe it's true that criminals don't care what the laws are and they're all rocking Glocks.

 

[Fushigi Ojisan]

Surprised "prohibited persons" haven't already bought all of the pre-1899 firearms.

Oh, wait, maybe it's true that criminals don't care what the laws are and they're all rocking Polymer80s.

FIFY

Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk

 

[Squaregrouper]

You see the problem with Krags is the model year and the fiscal year for actual production and when they were actually manufactured.
I prefer the federal government largely stay out of my affairs with any weapon system however I do not believe a model 1894 Krag just because it uses a certain form of fixed metallic ammunition should be subject to a requirement for Nics just because a purchase for another antique system is problematic.

For Springfield Krags, the agreed upon serial numbers are anything below #152,000