9X19 MM Concealed Carry Ammunition Choices

[4g64loser]

Someone on mds said he saw where this was becoming part of training someplace.

It has been a part of training for certain groups in the past and probably will remain so in the future. Those who carry only handguns in an environment where body armor is a probability are sometimes trained to target the pelvic girdle.

 

[Tower43]

So even the US Military teaches the failure drill as "2 to the chest, 1 to the head OR pelvic girdle."
Yes, it's a mobility kill, however it doesn't disable their arms. So the threat is not eliminated.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

When in the academy at FLETC we were told that if you hit someone in the pelvic girdle they're going down...it's involuntary. They're still dangerous but are unable to move anywhere fast.

 

[teratos]

It has been a part of training for certain groups in the past and probably will remain so in the future. Those who carry only handguns in an environment where body armor is a probability are sometimes trained to target the pelvic girdle.

I think in those specific groups, it makes sense. Center mass should still be standard for civilians, IMO. We don’t need to worry much about body armor. We need to incapacitate and extricate. Pelvic shots still give your assailant plenty of time to shoot back.

 

[Tower43]

Also, don't forget, one of the goals in the infantry is to eliminate threats, elimination includes WOUNDING the enemy, because it takes more combatants out of the fight to care for the wounded (presuming regular infantry, not fanatical militants)

In a SD shooting, you're most likely one on one; so a mobility kill isnt the best, in theory.

Also, think in MD law, if they're immobile and now you can move to cover to be out of his LOS/LOF, any further use of deadly force now makes you the criminal.

 

[Sunrise]

Speer Gold Dot 124 Grain JHP (9mm) is my preferred choice for carry since I practice with Speer Lawman. Keeps things clean and keeps them consistent.

 

[lazarus]

Someone on mds said he saw where this was becoming part of training someplace.

It is. Because of the chance of the bad guy being armored. Even guys who are armored it is exceedingly rare someone is wearing an abdomen or groin protector, and a soft vest doesn’t extend down below about the top of your hips with rare exceptions.

 

[lazarus]

Also, don't forget, one of the goals in the infantry is to eliminate threats, elimination includes WOUNDING the enemy, because it takes more combatants out of the fight to care for the wounded (presuming regular infantry, not fanatical militants)

In a SD shooting, you're most likely one on one; so a mobility kill isnt the best, in theory.

Also, think in MD law, if they're immobile and now you can move to cover to be out of his LOS/LOF, any further use of deadly force now makes you the criminal.

I mean, only if the bad guy is not longer actually a threat. If he is down on the ground and can’t get up, but has a knife, unless he is going to drag himself over to you or someone else, he’s out. If the guy has a gun, unless he has dropped it, he is still a deadly threat. I’d also not suggest stopping with a single shot if they are really a deadly threat to you or others unless, again, they appear out of the fight.

If you have a gun you are not out of the fight unless you drop it or you stop moving. A knife or other deadly weapon you are basically done if you drop. If they get back up and you haven’t yet been able to retreat they are a threat again.

But this could apply in other ways. If a guy pulls a knife on you and you pull your gun on them and they turn and run, they are not a threat to you. But if they stop, turn around and run back at you, they are a threat again. Circumstances can be fluid and what you can do as an armed citizen, especially in this state is not as expansive as what a law enforcement officer could legally do, or could end up being excused from doing.

 

[4g64loser]

I think in those specific groups, it makes sense. Center mass should still be standard for civilians, IMO. We don’t need to worry much about body armor. We need to incapacitate and extricate. Pelvic shots still give your assailant plenty of time to shoot back.

Tools in the toolbox. Civilian DGUs are well documented as a broad and often messy category of (mostly) handgun engagement. Dr fackler was more concerned with mil application, marshall and sanow with Le/civilian. Both good sources within context.

In a hands-on encounter, any impact that begins the process of diminishing the threat is a good start. If those initial shots are to the girdle, and they allow you to get out of the clinch/tie up so you can extend and engage with greater accuracy, great. Put the subsequent string into the high center chest and/or the critical areas of the head.

More on topic; I'm good with speer gold dots in just about any handgun. Their 9x19 loads all test well. For those liking heavier bullets, particularly for use through a can, the winchester 147sxt has expanded for me in water jugs and in wet pack. Added bonus; it doesn't crack when run through subgun length barrels as some 147s occasionally do. It is subjective, but I also found speer gold dots and winchester sxts to smoke a bit less, causing less light obstruction/reflection when used with weapon mounted lights or handheld with harries method.

 

[Huckleberry]

I subscribe to the school of thought put forward by The Gun Crank, John Conner, that you don't stop shooting when you think the other guy is dead. You only stop shooting when you convinced him that he's dead.

Too many guys have got themselves killed because they didn't suspect the other guy had enough life in him for one last strike.

 

[Huckleberry]

Just asking someone's experience. I'd it paid or a lifetime hobby
Just nice to know when someone chimes in with long, wordy responses.

Why does he need to qualify his posts or validate his experience for your approval?

You can either agree or disagree with his post.

If you disagree then post your counter-point, rebuttal or witty retort then let the discussion or debate ensue.

B.F.44 has always been a solid MDS member and poster. His opinions do carry some weight just like yours do too

 

[Blaster229]

Why does he need to qualify his posts or validate his experience for your approval?

You can either agree or disagree with his post.

If you disagree then post your counter-point, rebuttal or witty retort then let the discussion or debate ensue.

B.F.44 has always been a solid MDS member and poster. His opinions do carry some weight just like yours do too

Have you ever asked someone what the do for a living? You never asked a question to anyone? I know you get a case of the ass easily, but I wasn't "validating" anything. that's your issue, not mine.
I never said anything about him not being "solid" either. And he certainly doesn't need you to take up for him.

I sit here and read a lot of posts with people chiming in with all this wealth of knowledge and long ass, in depth posts.
I just wonder what experience they have and if it came from professional experience or just as a hobby. Especially when it's on pretty much every thread post. It just happened to be to him. That's all.

 

[All Good Hits]

...back to the topic, I carry Speer Gold Dot 124 grain JHP +P. I remember seeing a side-by-side comparison of hollow point factory loads and it was the best one. Plus, since it's +P, it will probably blow both lungs out instead of just one.

 

[Huckleberry]

Have you ever asked someone what the do for a living? You never asked a question to anyone? I know you get a case of the ass easily, but I wasn't "validating" anything. that's your issue, not mine.
I never said anything about him not being "solid" either. And he certainly doesn't need you to take up for him.

I sit here and read a lot of posts with people chiming in with all this wealth of knowledge and long ass, in depth posts.
I just wonder what experience they have and if it came from professional experience or just as a hobby. Especially when it's on pretty much every thread post. It just happened to be to him. That's all.

Project Much?
You're the all-time poster boy for getting a case of the ass.

Anybody disagrees with you or doesn't meet your standards then they best be wearing their nomex.

Well, I said something because I like Biggfoot's posts and I don't like your bullying and yes, pecker checking.

You said, "Any actual gun carrying as a paid profession?" like if he said, "No" that would invalidate his posts.

Well, I know a few amateurs that haven't been a "paid professional" like yourself but the've won enough trophies and placks from Camp Perry, NRA, USPPA, IPSC that they're asked to guest instruct at various .Gov and .Mil training units. They never pinned on a badge but they know more about strapping on a gun than me, you and every other Swinging Richard and Geraldine on MDS.

You got a lot of grit for forgetting your terminal cases of ass that earned you a few bans. I still remember all your B.S. with Pig Roast II so I won't be surprised when it happens again before PR-3.

 

[spoon059]

Also, think in MD law, use of deadly force now makes you the criminal.

There we go, fixed it for you.


Sent from my SM-N970U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Bonanza]

So…the thing that REALLY drops someone in their tracks is dumping energy into the central nervous system. I like ballistics, the physics and anatomy of gunshot wounds. We are mostly water. Water does not compress.

I carry with hand loaded 115g 9mm Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators. They create a larger temporary wound channel which is a surrogate measure of the energy it dumps into tissues. The more energy you dump, the more likely they are to drop. They leave a slightly larger permanent wound channel. I think that data will prove them to be superior to other designs. At the very least, they will be on par with other offerings.

Plus, no lead. Environmentally friendly

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/what-are-the-legal-implications-of-handloading-ammo/amp/

 

[cornstalk]

Plus, no lead. Environmentally friendly

That's good. I wouldn't want to pollute the earth while stopping a perp, or give him lead poisoning.

 

[korndog]

Because many different calibers are carried for defense please limit this thread to 9X19 MM (9MM Luger) ammunition only. If you have thoughts or information on other calibers you would like to discuss please start your own dedicated thread.

Since they say "Train with what you carry." What are your thoughts on the "Best" 9 MM ammo (Type, weight, and brand) to carry considering ability to incapacitate, control ability, cost, and other factors?

The ballistic gel tests run by Lucky gunner seem to show some hollow points having problems with expansion (they use a heavy cloth barrier in front of the gel) as well as penetration issues (either too little or too much).


Link to Lucky Gunner Test Protocols:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#standards


Link to Lucky Gunner 9 MM Test Results:

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

Winchester Ranger-T is the best but its hard to find.

 

[Blaster229]

Winchester Ranger-T is the best but its hard to find.

Who rated it "The best"?

 

[Bullfrog]

Who rated it "The best"?

I don't know if they rated it "best" but the lucky gunner comparison linked in the post he quoted shows it had the best expansion in gel by a good margin; .74". Next best expansion was Federal HST at .71".