9mm or .300aac

[lazarus]

I've been doing some research and poking around a bit and asked a few questions but now I figure I need to get a bit more serious. I am moving beyond the AR-15 20" HBAR I built and I am picking up a couple of lowers soon. I am in no hurry to build out either. I am leaning towards building a .223/5.56 16" upper to go on the same lower as my 20" for now. However, with Black Friday approaching I am generally keeping my eyes out for deals. If I can find a good deal on some AR pistol components I might snatch them up.

So 9mm vs .300aac blackout in an AR pistol. Here is kind of what I was thinking and I am interested in. I'd like to keep the pistol as small as possible and be reliable. I am thinking the 9mm has the edge there. But I'd also like to, once the pistol is built and thus IS a pistol, build a 16" carbine upper I can slap on the lower in the same caliber.

Here .300 blackout seems to have some nice advantages of more energy down range, longer real effective range and sufficient energy that with a 16" barrel I could use it as something like a 100-150yd deer carbine. Also .300 blackout build seems to be cheaper. Especially for an initial build. I can swap the BCG and charging handle from my current .223 Wylde AR-15 if I wanted and even buying a dedicated one is $80-100 and most 9mm BCGs seem to be about $130-180.

Also savings on not needing a magwell adapter and all new magazines.

Downside is the ammo isn't as cheap and if/when I ever get a seperate pistol, like a Glock 19, I'd probably get it in 9mm and then I can use the same ammo and magazines across my AR-15 pistol/carbine and my Glock handgun.

That said, yes the obvious thing is some day I need to get a 4th lower and build it as the other caliber as a pistol. That may have some year, but not soon. As a note the 3rd lower I have is going to eventually be built in to .25-45 sharps, .277 wolverine, 6.8spc or some other obscure caliber for use specifically as a deer/hog rifle. Yes I know I could use .300 blackout for that and if that is what I build a pistol in, it might get some use as that as a rifle setup, but I like options.

So as a starter, what do you suggest for a caliber and if suggesting 9mm, suggestions on inexpensive uppers/BCGs/barrels/magwell adapters (that can take Glock mags)? I am just not turning up much. I don't expect a $50 build, but I've priced just the upper components on a .300 blackout in 7.5" length and I am coming up with about $200-230 without charging handle and BCG and in a 4" 9mm I am coming up with about $450.

That is about 800 rounds of ammo before break even on the 9mm and even more if I start reloading quickly which I think .300 blackout will finally make me do. .223-5.56 only seems to make sense to reload for match rounds as FMJ pricing components I only save like 1-3 cents a round, which is a lot of work to save what isn't even a large coffee for 100 rounds. .308 it makes some sense, but even there for something like FMJ or basic soft points I am only saving about 5-8 cents a round. .300 blackout I am saving a good 20 cents per round! Now that adds up fast.

Note I am looking at the prices I can get on inexpensive stuff, when on sale using discounts and stuff. M193 I've been able to get for .24-.28 per round lately and 7.62/5.56 m80 for about .50-.60 per round. Cheapest I've seen 9mm is about .18 per round discounted and .300 blackout about .60 discounted.

 

[Fox123]

If you don't reload or have plans to suppress it, then 9mm.

If want to suppress and you reload then 300

As far as deer carbine, just get an upper and put it on the hbar lower you already have.

 

[DYI01]

There is no Glock mag block for a standard AR15 lower. The only mag blocks for those utilize a Colt magazine. If you want a Glock fed AR 9, you need to go with a dedicated Glock lower.

 

[Indiana Jones]

9mm, because it will still be here in a couple years.

 

[Melnic]

Where will you be shooting a 9mm upper? Indoor range? Back yard?
If Indoor range, does the Indoor range allow 223 or 300blk? or just pistol caliber?
Something to consider. (or maybe you already have)

If outdoor, what range will you be shooting the 9mm? Not sure how accurate that is @ 50 yards compared to 300BLK or 223

For Deer, what I've researched is you need a high velocity 115gr bullet to meet the MD deer minimum of 1200ft lbs (are you in MD?) unless you do it as a pistol which is 700ft lbs.

Its nearly impossible (or very difficult from what Ive seen) to get 300blk suppressed and stay subsonic and get it to 700ft lbs for deer for a pistol.

FYI, Using 9mm and 223 bullets from xtremebullets.com here are my reloading costs
223: Bullet ($.10)+ Primer ($.03) + Powder ($.11) = $.24 per round
9mm : Bullet ($.10) + Primer ($.03) + Powder ($.02) = $.15 per round

Other than reloading for accuracy, Reloading is more a hobby than a $ saver for me. There are others who shoot so much and don't have the funds that they have invested in it to save $ in the long run. I don't think I've saved much $ if at all yet when amortizing my equipment and time. People who spend the labor to cast their own and powder coat spend very little $ on the bullet but more on time.'

For a 300blk deer carbine, you were thinking of doing that as a pistol out to 150yards?

I think your only going to be happy when you go with one of each

good luck and take everyone's advice with a grain of salt.

 

[Biggfoot44]

1200 ft lb from 9x19 carbine just ain't gona happen.

But 1200ft lb is an arbitrary Maryland thing. You'd be legal in Va and many othet places.

 

[outrider58]

If "small as possible" is a main criteria, 9mm. Make the next one a 300AAC and SBR/suppress it... or, the other way around. Nines are light as crap. It all depends on what your immediate needs are.

 

[lazarus]

Well, my criteria for a 9 would be that it takes Glock mags, so if I need a dedicated lower tor that, it sounds like a build on one of these lowers (Anderson) is going to be .3000 blackout.

For deer hunting it would be with a 16" .300 blackout upper only, not with the 7.5" on it. I don't care much about subsonic for hunting. Well, not deer/pigs anyway. I may get a silencer some day, but that day will probably be when the SAFE hearing act passes and I don't have to do a trust for my wife and a tax stamp.

I figure it would be nice to have a pistol/PDW setup that doesn't fall under NFA for range, HD and then have a 16" upper I can slap on it for pig and deer.

I know I could just slap a 16"+ .300 blackout on my current .223 HBAR built lower, but I guess in my head I don't want to mix calibers on the same lower. My mind doesn't always make a lot of sense, but some of it is so that color, style, etc. I know at a glance what the caliber of the lower, upper and magazines all are.

I can't say I'd never want to go to an indoor range, but I haven't yet so far.

Out of curiosity since I've never asked at any range, but the slightly more inbetween stuff, at many ranges are you still restricted to the pistol range with something like an AR pistol? Or will some let you use the rifle benches? Example, Issac Walton (Damascus), AGC, Cresap, Hap?

I can't imagine really wanting to shoot it at 100yds, but I think it would be fun to sight and zero at 50yds in pistol configuration and at 100 with a 16" upper on it.

I haven't bothered with reloading yet, in large part because I mostly shoot inexpensive stuff and right now, 1.5" accuracy on a sub-MOA rifle is ok with me as I know my marksmanship is at least equally to blame. But something like .300 blackout when cheap stuff is basically the same cost as .308 or even slightly more, but it uses .10-13 less in powder per round and slightly less brass too, which probably saves the manufacturer a penny or two.

Well anyway, part of my desire is for now I refuse to get an HQL, so my only legal path to handgun ownership is to build one. If HQL gets struck down in the current legal case, my opinion might change on an AR pistol...but I also found building an AR-15 20" rifle was a load of fun. So an AR pistol is my next building project for fun.

I doubt I'll shoot nearly as much with an AR pistol as I would a rifle, so cost is slightly less of a worry, but still a consideration (2-3 times a year, 60-100 rounds is probably what we are talking and a cache of 300-400 rounds).

On a legality question, how is it handled as a pistol and with a rifle upper? I assume once I slap a 16" barreled upper on it I could legally shoulder it and even put a stock on it, but before that short barrel got reattached I'd need to take a stock off and not shoulder it anymore? With an AR pistol attaching a rifle/carbine upper I wouldn't put a real stock on it ever.

How in the F does Maryland handle transport and carry, if the 16" is attached is carry treated like a rifle, is open carry fine? What if I have the pistol upper sitting in the case with it when the 16" is attached? Do the laws on when and where I can take the thing follow pistol or rifle laws? Does it follow how it is currently configured? Does "intent" carry over if the pistol upper is transported with it? Is it always treated as a pistol because that is how it was originally built (and of course is going to obviously have a pistol buffer and brace on it always)?

Why Maryland, why can't you just friggen have open carry across the board?!?

 

[Melnic]

Much of what you ask about the laws are untested.

ATF says if you build it as a Pistol, you can then convert to a rifle.
You can not first build as a Rifle then covert to a pistol w/o paying a stamp.

As far as handgun w/o HQL, you can legally build your own w/ an 80% Glock lower kit like a spectre. And it will take Glock mags I have not done that but seen videos.

 

[lazarus]

So, 16" upper on pistol lower cool, but I probably want to always treat it as a pistol even with a 16" upper then, huh?

To clarify my thoughts/question after a little more research, putting a stock on means it becomes a rifle and can't go back, but I could put a 16" upper on and it would still be a pistol. Yes?

I'd probably still be interested in a setup where I've got 7.5" and 14.5-16" options on a pistol. Single point sling to tension it and go to town.

 

[Melnic]

As I understand it, if you take a lower and make a pistol, you can later put a stock and a 16" plus upper on it, then go back to a pistol later.
You just can't build it as a rifle and move to a pistol at any time.

 

[lazarus]

As I understand it, if you take a lower and make a pistol, you can later put a stock and a 16" plus upper on it, then go back to a pistol later.
You just can't build it as a rifle and move to a pistol at any time.

Gods the NFA sucks and is dense.

I found this https://blog.princelaw.com/2011/8/2/batfe-ruling-2011-4-pistol-to-a-rifle-and-back-to-a-pistol/

The actual ruling is a little hard to pull apart on the finer points, but it does look like so long as I get all of the pistol parts and assemble it as such it is forever then a pistol. I could convert it to a rifle and then back to a pistol no problem.

The ruling doesn't seem to touch on it, but it does seem to suggest that converting it to a rifle means it would thus be treated as a rifle, except that you could convert it back to a pistol at some point.

I guess a tricky point is to actually convert it from a pistol to a rifle (non-SBR) I'd need to attach a stock, not just a 16" barreled upper. Otherwise it is just a really big pistol still. That seems like a hassle unless anyone knows of a rifle stock that'll attach to a pistol buffer semi rigidly.

Hmm, I wonder about a wire collapsible stock that attaches to the uppper itself.

Whatever. Not a big worry of mine on how to make it work. Not anytime soon. I'll make sure to more carefully pay attention to any legalities if or when I'd consider a carbine upper for it. I think at this point I am fairly settled on build a .300 blackout 7-8" pistol next.

 

[outrider58]

Gods the NFA sucks and is dense.

I found this https://blog.princelaw.com/2011/8/2/batfe-ruling-2011-4-pistol-to-a-rifle-and-back-to-a-pistol/

The actual ruling is a little hard to pull apart on the finer points, but it does look like so long as I get all of the pistol parts and assemble it as such it is forever then a pistol. I could convert it to a rifle and then back to a pistol no problem.

That's what I do with every lower I buy.

The ruling doesn't seem to touch on it, but it does seem to suggest that converting it to a rifle means it would thus be treated as a rifle, except that you could convert it back to a pistol at some point.

I guess a tricky point is to actually convert it from a pistol to a rifle (non-SBR) I'd need to attach a stock, not just a 16" barreled upper. Otherwise it is just a really big pistol still. That seems like a hassle unless anyone knows of a rifle stock that'll attach to a pistol buffer semi rigidly.

Not necessary.

Hmm, I wonder about a wire collapsible stock that attaches to the uppper itself.

Whatever. Not a big worry of mine on how to make it work. Not anytime soon. I'll make sure to more carefully pay attention to any legalities if or when I'd consider a carbine upper for it. I think at this point I am fairly settled on build a .300 blackout 7-8" pistol next.

A carbine buffer is all that is needed to be a 'pistoled' lower, AFAIK.

^^^From everything I have read on this subject. You are welcome to go your own way. We all have our personal comfort levels.

 

[BenL]

I have both.

If you reload and have a 308 suppressor, 300 Blackout; much more versatile. Can load 125 gr supersonic for hunting/self defense, up to 225 gr for subsonic suppressor fun.

If you don't reload, then 9mm (cheap shooting fun.) Keep in mind, 9mm ARs can be finicky (especially with 110 gr ammo) and parts aren't standardized. Mags range from great (Metalform) to crap (Promag) and you'll probably break a bolt hold open occasionally (there are fixes for this, but the "fixes" can effect reliability.)

 

[Biggfoot44]

It's been mentioned , but probably the most significant factor is whether you have better/ easier access to a nominally "pistol range" vs a real Rifle range.

 

[lazarus]

Yeah, I have the same access to both, but my limits are 25 or 17yds on pistol ranges. Which I know are pretty similar. I am cool shooting it mostly on a pistol range, but I am hoping I can find a range that'll allow me to fire it on the rifle range so I can practice and zero at 50 or even 100. Just cause. My vision is more of a PDW for it, even if it is only being fired from the cheek or fully extended-tensioned with single point sling techniques.

I think at this point I am mostly settled on making one of my new lowers a .300AAC blackout pistol at 7.5-8.5" barrel. The other is going to live as a rifle at some point, but I'll probably build it as a pistol first also, so it can then go back to one some day. No issue if the parts on the pistol go to the other lower to make it a pistol before getting stripped back down?

I do want a 9mm, but I think I'll track down a dedicated 9mm lower that takes Glock mags. It'll take awhile before I am there though.

Tracked down a pistol buffer and I am likely to jump on a polished trigger group to drop on my 20" HBAR, the one from that is going to go in to the pistol. Also going to pickup a lower parts kit and a magpul MOE grip for my HBAR with the A2 grip to go on the pistol.

The upper is going to wait a few months. Hell it might even be a Black Friday 2017 project to track down the parts for it. I really want a Ruger American Rimfire for my self and start teaching my son shooting this spring and I've got a home addition I have to start this spring.

 

[Fox123]

I do want a 9mm, but I think I'll track down a dedicated 9mm lower that takes Glock mags. It'll take awhile before I am there

For later, an option to consider:
https://newfrontierarmory.com/shop/c-9-80-billet-lower-receiver-glock-style-mags/

 

[lkenefic]

I've always viewed 9mm as a handgun cartridge only and really never got into the whole handgun caliber carbine craze. Unless it's select-fire, suppressed, and has a shoulder stock (re-NFA), I've never really seen the point. ...well, maybe for 45LC or 44mag in a lever actioned carbine, but that's a whole 'nuther story. IMHO, the 300 AAC is made to be suppressed with either an 8.5" or 10.5" barrel on an AR platform... for me, I'll likely go SBR even though I'll be constrained to the 29" silliness in MD.

 

[lazarus]

I've always viewed 9mm as a handgun cartridge only and really never got into the whole handgun caliber carbine craze. Unless it's select-fire, suppressed, and has a shoulder stock (re-NFA), I've never really seen the point. ...well, maybe for 45LC or 44mag in a lever actioned carbine, but that's a whole 'nuther story. IMHO, the 300 AAC is made to be suppressed with either an 8.5" or 10.5" barrel on an AR platform... for me, I'll likely go SBR even though I'll be constrained to the 29" silliness in MD.

Upside is an 8" AR pistol (if you have a muzzle device) is something like 24-26" as it is, so if you have an actual stock, wouldn't that make it up over 29" when extended?

My desire is super cheap to shoot. Hard to get cheaper other than 22lr.

At least in so far as a 9mm carbine that takes the same mags as a pistol (as opposed to a "pistol" PDW, which I consider AR pistols) same reason people used to run .44 pistols and .44 lever carbines. You get a lot more zip with the same ammo. In this case a lot more zip with the same ammo and mags.

9mm ain't great in a long barrel, but from a 4" Glock to a 16" carbine you gain about 30% more muzzle energy and with a stock, longer sight radius and the extra zip, you get more of a legitimate 100-125 yard gun instead of maybe a 50 yard weapon for a pistol. And you might hit something at 200yds, but he prepare to Kentucky windage the heck out if it.

.300 blackout from that perspective makes a lot more sense as you start with higher muzzle velocity and a much higher BC bullet and you go from 1800FPS out of a 7" barrel to 2200 out of a 16" for a good 50% increase in energy. As a pistol it is much more limited by marksmanship with a pistol platform and as a carbine it absolutely can be a 200yd or even 300yd carbine.

But I also want something really cheap to shoot that can put some hurt out to 100yds or so.

 

[TGR]

Look at a JRC Carbine (Gen 3). I've got a 1000 rounds thru mine without a hiccup and it's crazy fun to shoot. Very accurate to 50 yards. I see no need to try it at 100. Takes Glock mags. I have the takedown model.