870's and 500's may have some competition

[august1410]

Shouldn't you be packing?

Will be when I get to NC...


Seriously, the big downsizing starts tomorrow....this is the last day of fun.

 

[Ethan83]

I hate the guns because they are made by Commies.

That's fine, and I respect that. I really sincerely do. I hate Commies too. Any commie weapon I own (which is currently 3) was sold by Communists a long time ago, and the profit of my specific purchases went to American businesses. I just wish that others in this thread would admit that and be accurate in reporting their opinions. There's a pretty big difference between "The IAC Hawk 982 is a complete piece of shit shotgun not worthy of being pissed upon," and saying "The Communist Chinese government are a bunch of shitbags not worthy of being pissed upon." Mikhail Kalashnikov designed his weapon for the Communist Russians, yet I don't see the same kind of trash-talk towards AKs. I don't see anyone being made fun of for their Norinco 'Paratrooper' SKS. Hell, I would bet there are as many people on this board that own Saigas as there are people that don't think even modern Russia is much of a friend, yet no trash-talk there. Yet, these Chinese shotguns are being called, quite literally, toilet bowls full of feces? Not the Communist Chinese, mind you - the shotguns.

"I refuse to buy, and politely discourage others from buying Norinco firearms because I disagree strongly with the Chinese government."

"HURR HURR YOUR SHOTGUN IS WORSE THAN DOG FECES CUZ ITS CHINESE"

Let me ask you this: Who else is wearing a black and gold NRA hat right now? Y'know, the one you got for free when you became a member. I am right now. Seriously. And y'know what? That tag on the inside says:

"100% COTTON
MADE IN CHINA"

I'm not happy about that fact, but a mature, intelligent, and civil response might be "I find this disappointing, if not dismaying, that the NRA is doing trade with China."

NOT:

HURR HURR THE NRA IS WORSE THAN DOG FECES!!

C'mon guys, that's the kind of logic the political left would use; we can do better than that.

 

[trbon8r]

Ethan,

I don't think we really disagree all that much. I own a Saiga rifle made by former Commies, and I used to own a Chinese AK I bought back in the early '90s. Likewise I have no problem with buying mil-surp guns from former Eastern block countries. It's all good.

However when it comes to China, I think Americans need to wake up and realize that their government has a long term strategy of bleeding the Yankee dry of our last dollar and shred of intellectual capital, and eventually putting us out of business before foreclosing on us. They do this by buying our corrupt politicians that control our trade policies. Our industrial infrastructure is being sold out one piece at a time in the name of "free trade." The next time we have to fight a global war we are in trouble because our heavy industry is disappearing.

At this particular stage of life here as we sit in 2010, I try to put as little money in China's pocket as I possibly can. That is getting harder each year, but I try to do what I can. These Chinese shotguns might be decent and all, but I don't want one. If that MAK 90 I bought back in the early '90s was on the shelf for sale today new in the box with the profits going back to China, I'd pass it by. The world has changed.

 

[Ethan83]

Ethan,

I don't think we really disagree all that much. I own a Saiga rifle made by former Commies, and I used to own a Chinese AK I bought back in the early '90s. I have no problem with buying mil-surp guns from former Eastern block countries. It's all good.

However when it comes to China, I think Americans need to wake up and realize that their government has a long term strategy of bleeding the Yankee dry of our last dollar and shred of intellectual capital, and eventually putting us out of business before foreclosing on us. They do this by buying our corrupt politicians that control our trade policies. Our industrial infrastructure is being sold out one piece at a time in the name of "free trade." The next time we have to fight a global war we are in trouble because our heavy industry is disappearing.

At this particular stage of life here as we sit in 2010, I try to put as little money in China's pocket as I possibly can. That is getting harder each year, but I try to do what I can. These Chinese shotguns might be decent and all, but I don't want one. If that MAK 90 I bought back in the early '90s was on the shelf for sale now new in the box with the profits going back to China, I'd pass it by. The world has changed.

A far better post than I could hope to make. This is a legitimate argument.

 

[X-Factor]

A few points:

Rem 870/Mossy 500 ARE cream of the crop HD guns IMO.... I love my 870 (18" Express Mag "tactical"). IN ADDITION, when I was in the military (and I don't know the civilian version), the Benelli M1014 was the SHIT. I NEVER had an issue with one....semi auto, never needed to be cleaned (we did anyway...Marines clean things when bored), accurate as hell.... Awesome gun. I'll stick to pump for an HD gun, though, and Benelli seems to be a bit overpriced.

Why all the hate on Commie guns? None of you haters of "commie guns" own Mosins? The vast majority of Russian produced Mosins were made under a communist regime.... True, Sergei Mosin designed it PRE Communism but not long before. Mosins, as most of us have seen, are INCREDIBLY tough guns and are still shooting reasonably accurately almost 100 years later.

Hate the political system/leadership, not the quality of firearm. Let the gun speak for itself.

 

[trbon8r]

Why all the hate on Commie guns?

It isn't about buying a surplus Mosin that is a collectible rifle made 60 or more years ago; a rifle that isn't even made anymore. What it is about is buying a NEW gun fresh off the assembly line from a bunch of Commies and having the profits go to a country that is trying to put us out of business, just to save a 100 bucks.

I couldn't care less about the guy that buys a 95 dollar Mosin at the gun show. No big deal, and more power to 'em. I've been tempted myself, but I know if I bought one it would only collect dust. But if you are in the market for a new pump shotgun currently being produced, spend the extra 100 bucks and keep some of your fellow Americans working at Remington, Mossberg, or Ithaca.

Screw Norinco. Most of the stuff they make is nothing but a ripoff of American designs anyway (Winchester 1897, 1911, M-14, etc.) Looks like they finally got around to ripping off Ithaca too.

 

[X-Factor]

It isn't about buying a surplus Mosin that is a collectible rifle made 60 or more years ago; a rifle that isn't even made anymore. What it is about is buying a NEW gun fresh off the assembly line from a bunch of Commies and having the profits go to a country that is trying to put us out of business, just to save a 100 bucks.

I couldn't care less about the guy that buys a 95 dollar Mosin at the gun show. No big deal, and more power to 'em. I've been tempted myself, but I know if I bought one it would only collect dust. But if you are in the market for a new pump shotgun currently being produced, spend the extra 100 bucks and keep some of your fellow Americans working at Remington, Mossberg, or Ithaca.

Screw Norinco. Most of the stuff they make is nothing but a ripoff of American designs anyway (Winchester 1897, 1911, M-14, etc.) Looks like they finally got around to ripping off Ithaca too.

Ok. I see your point.

 

[ALBY]

first of all, although the model 37 was a John Moses Browning design, it is flawed from a combat perspective. it loads and ejects thru the same port. I have two model 37's and one consistently double feeds despite numerous trips to the smith to have the shell stop 'tuned' (bent). the jam is very hard to clear and would be a showstopper in 'combat'.


second, i have no idea WTF is going on with Ithaca, but the 'brand' has changed hands quite a bit recently. the most recent incarnation of which I am aware was an outfit that bought the name and inventory of NY based Ithacagun and offered way overpriced custom model 37's at bennelli like prices.

third, the barrel has a piece welded right onto it that makes magazine extensions or barrel changes hard to accomplish. not modular.

fourth, savage/stevens has produced a number of crappy firearms over the years. I have a bunch of their junk shotguns from the 20th centruy. I savage 16ga autoloader that is a copy of the browning A5 (kicks like a mule, bad bead sight, ugly, bad fit and fisnish), a model 1927 (?) pumpgun that is a bad copy of the model 12, a cheap stevens side by side and a cheap fox side by side. my family is from upstate NY, right in gun country... lots of old eapons factories in the utica to syracuse-ithaca area. these are family guns i will never sell, buit all are subpar as weapons imo.

fifth... norinco makes cheap guns with slave labor.

this design was abondoned by remington, picked up by ithaca after the patent expired and the gun has long been outshined by remington and mossberg. they are acceptable in a goose blind, but i would not trust my life to one.

FWIW YMMV

 

[evanslb19]

wonder why no american company has the balls to make a semi auto mag fed 12 at a reasonable price. the saiga was selling for aroud 300 before it got popular. so you should be able to sell an american one for around six or seven.

 

[Ethan83]

Can we stop calling all foreign labor "slave labor"? These people aren't "slaves" in anything but the most incredibly vague terms. There are parts of the US where 24k/yr is a reasonably comfortable income, but the same salary would qualify one as a "slave laborer" if you lived in NYC based on that silly logic. Low wages != slavery, people.

They get by on such low pay because their cost of living is so low. The majority of that has to do with a lower standard of living, but there are still a LOT of other factors that keep their living costs down (less taxes, regulation, etc, for example). You think all American workers are entitled to healthcare benefits on top of their wages, plus enough extra income to save for things like higher education for their children, all while subsidizing social entitlements and protecting the environment to an absurd degree? Oh, and two weeks vacation every year? Fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This mentality, as exercised by labor unions, has already destroyed the US Auto industry, and it will continue to destroy the rest of American industry until people realize that free markets and progress require competition, whether you like it or not. Sometimes, competing successfully means lowering your price. It's called economic progress.

 

[hvymax]

The Condor O/U has worked pretty well for me so far.(17 years) I originally bought it for sporting clays and hunting because it was the first O/U that I could afford but it didn't fit like my Mossbergs so all of my shots were low so without a shimmable stock I wound up fitting it with a Hi-Viz turkey sight which attracts my eye more than a bead and with cylinder chokes is an exellent "double rifle".I must say that I have really gotten on the BUY AMERICAN bandwagon lately because we really need to support American jobs any way we practically can.

 

[Gaius Baltar]

Can we stop calling all foreign labor "slave labor"? These people aren't "slaves" in anything but the most incredibly vague terms. There are parts of the US where 24k/yr is a reasonably comfortable income, but the same salary would qualify one as a "slave laborer" if you lived in NYC based on that silly logic. Low wages != slavery, people.

They get by on such low pay because their cost of living is so low. The majority of that has to do with a lower standard of living, but there are still a LOT of other factors that keep their living costs down (less taxes, regulation, etc, for example). You think all American workers are entitled to healthcare benefits on top of their wages, plus enough extra income to save for things like higher education for their children, all while subsidizing social entitlements and protecting the environment to an absurd degree? Oh, and two weeks vacation every year? Fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This mentality, as exercised by labor unions, has already destroyed the US Auto industry, and it will continue to destroy the rest of American industry until people realize that free markets and progress require competition, whether you like it or not. Sometimes, competing successfully means lowering your price. It's called economic progress.

a very valid point.

 

[Treeguy]

There are many shotguns made but nothing comes even close to a rem 870..dam things take a licking and keep ticking..

 

[BlackBart]

NICE TURD!!!

I'll have one with Cool Whip please.

 

[BlackBart]

It isn't about buying a surplus Mosin that is a collectible rifle made 60 or more years ago; a rifle that isn't even made anymore. What it is about is buying a NEW gun fresh off the assembly line from a bunch of Commies and having the profits go to a country that is trying to put us out of business, just to save a 100 bucks.

Pretty much the way I feel about buying a new Jap car.

 

[mbz300sdl]

[/QUOTE]

I have the one at the top sets next to my computer during the day and my bed at night. Bought it used about 2 years ago I personally have put over 100 rnds through it feeds as fast as i can pump it.

UCN X12 imported by Ultracell in NY