Armadillofz1
Ultimate Member
I have a couple of old 38 break tops. I was wondering if i can cut down 38spl brass to work. Will the 38spl dies work as well? TIA
38s&w
- Thread starter Armadillofz1
- Start date
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Threeband
The M1 Does My Talking
No. .38 S&W is fatter.
You can buy ammo, cases, and dies for .38 S&W, but .38 Special won't wirk.
You can buy ammo, cases, and dies for .38 S&W, but .38 Special won't wirk.
There are several companies that still make .38 S&W ammo and components. I shoot it all the time. .38 special is incompatible.
If I owned a revolver so chambered, I'd be wondering about your question also. But it might not be worth the hassle to try to form cases. Starline still makes 38SW brass, and I believe that some factory ammo is still made as well. Dies are made also.
Just a word of caution. A glance at a 1979 Speer# 8 manual that I have shows disclaimers regarding the use of listed load data in any make of the top break revolvers. It actually states that, "for safety sake, all hinged frame revolvers made prior to World War ll should be regarded as relics of a bygone era and placed in honored retirement."
Now me, I'd probably be tempted to want to load for an example I owned were it in good condition. But....again just me....I'd want as few variables as possible, and that would mean factory brass for me, and a very definite leaning toward mouse fart loads.
Good luck!
Just a word of caution. A glance at a 1979 Speer# 8 manual that I have shows disclaimers regarding the use of listed load data in any make of the top break revolvers. It actually states that, "for safety sake, all hinged frame revolvers made prior to World War ll should be regarded as relics of a bygone era and placed in honored retirement."
Now me, I'd probably be tempted to want to load for an example I owned were it in good condition. But....again just me....I'd want as few variables as possible, and that would mean factory brass for me, and a very definite leaning toward mouse fart loads.
Good luck!
Armadillofz1
Ultimate Member
True wisdom here. Thanks!
august1410
Marcas Registradas
I had an old H&R .38 S&W breaktop that would only take black powder cartridges......I got mine from a guy in AZ......at a hefty price.
303_enfield
Ultimate Member
You can trim .38 Spl brass to make .38S&W brass. Use a makarov expander but the brass will split when fired (60% rate), it works. Cast your own pills at .361 an try 2.0 gr of red dot.
Read around here an you'll find all the data you need:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
Read around here an you'll find all the data you need:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
Threeband
The M1 Does My Talking
Or you could just order a few boxes online:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.a...n+PPU+.38+S&W+145grn+LRN+50rd+Box&groupid=346
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.a...n+PPU+.38+S&W+145grn+LRN+50rd+Box&groupid=346
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BossmanPJ
Ultimate Member
I have an old National Firearms breaktop .38 S&W and I shoot it from time to time. Have never tried reloads but I have heard slot about how the newer factory ammo is too strong for them to handle. Personally mine handles it but be careful.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,522
Handloading partner #1 has a late production S&W breaktop , and setout to develope accurate loads. Turns out there was quite a bit of vriation for throat and bore dimentions, and his were quite large. He went to custom molds for IIRC .363 nd .364 . The other aproach would have been hollow base .
walnut
Member
Fired .38 Special brass, do not size & no trimming necessary. Bell mouth of case to seat .359-.361 wadcutter flush & crimp. Light side powder charge. Assemble a dummy or two to check for chambering and cylinder rotation. No case splitting in my experience.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,522
I believe you that you have done as described , and so far gotten away with it. BUT full length .38spl brass will protrude well into the throat of a .38s&w cylnder. I'll have to dig ... Never mind was able to google. Few relevent numbers , lbeit not the complete SAAMI chamber specs.
.38 S&W - Chamber .3896 , throat .361
.38 spl - neck od .379
*IF* dimentions of both parts are anywhere near SAAMI , a .38spl case won't come close to fitting into a .38s&w throat. As alluded above I have seen some wide variations in actual dimentions. My friend's throat was .365-ish ( and no , it had huge groups with std size bullets).
Normally a crimp/ case neck interference of .004 is very heavy.
So a taper crimp from hell might get the neck OD on a Special down to .373 or .374. A really , really loose s&w throat would be .366 ? Still would need heavy pressure , if not small hammer to get .37 length of special case into s&W throat, best case tollerence stacking.
As long as on related topics , I have seen the reverse happen , and I understand it's not that unusual. .38s&w factory ammo is often run small , suposedly R-P in particular. If the .38spl chamber is a little bit over SAAMI , the .38s&w will fit , albeit snuggly. Not all .38spl cylnders , but I've read guesstimates of 20-25% .
Still more chamber trivia :
In .38spl the clearence between ctg and chamber spec is .0022 . For .38s&w is .0033. Typical min to under sized ammo makes even more slop , all theoretically reducing accuracy. If you have too much time , bullets with full size driving band into the throat , and neck sizing only should increase .38 s&w accuracy.
.38 S&W - Chamber .3896 , throat .361
.38 spl - neck od .379
*IF* dimentions of both parts are anywhere near SAAMI , a .38spl case won't come close to fitting into a .38s&w throat. As alluded above I have seen some wide variations in actual dimentions. My friend's throat was .365-ish ( and no , it had huge groups with std size bullets).
Normally a crimp/ case neck interference of .004 is very heavy.
So a taper crimp from hell might get the neck OD on a Special down to .373 or .374. A really , really loose s&w throat would be .366 ? Still would need heavy pressure , if not small hammer to get .37 length of special case into s&W throat, best case tollerence stacking.
As long as on related topics , I have seen the reverse happen , and I understand it's not that unusual. .38s&w factory ammo is often run small , suposedly R-P in particular. If the .38spl chamber is a little bit over SAAMI , the .38s&w will fit , albeit snuggly. Not all .38spl cylnders , but I've read guesstimates of 20-25% .
Still more chamber trivia :
In .38spl the clearence between ctg and chamber spec is .0022 . For .38s&w is .0033. Typical min to under sized ammo makes even more slop , all theoretically reducing accuracy. If you have too much time , bullets with full size driving band into the throat , and neck sizing only should increase .38 s&w accuracy.
walnut
Member
Some older .38 S&W's will allow .38 Special brass to be chambered, due to the lack of a (or minimal) throat in the cylinder chambers. Easy to check - do the plunk test.
Good info there. For grins, I pulled three .38 S&W revolvers out of my safe. All three cylinders have stepped throats, with chamber and throat diameters per above. It's impossible to fully seat a .38 Spl round or empty case into a cylinder and it's a loose fit in the chamber area. Typical .38 Spl ball ammo is way longer the cylinder. If the cylinder was reamed, .38 Spl cases go almost to front of the cylinder, theoretically allowing down-loaded .38 Spl wadcutters to be fired.
I doubt the cylinders came from the factory that way. Somebody probably reamed them back in the day to shoot .38 Spl wadcutters loaded to black powder pressures, since .38 S&W ammo/brass was obsolete by the late 1920's.
303_enfield
Ultimate Member
1920's? Nope still going strong till the 70's. As in the S&W Terrier made till 1974 in .38S&W
Armadillofz1
Ultimate Member
Well, i think i'm going to cook up some mouse farts. I'll don motorcycle helmet and welding gloves for the smoke test.
Obsolete in 1920's but not extinct. Uberti currently sells a revolver chambered in .44 Russian and Ammo to Go has the ammo in stock, despite being obsolete more than 100 years ago. Good examples of very obsolete but not quite extinct are 8mm Lebel revolver and .32 ACP. As for truly extinct (commercially): larger-bore rimfire (.32, .38, .41), .44 American, .17 HM2, and so on. I toss in .17 HM2 as a wild card since it's very contemporary, available commercially-loaded as stashes come up for sale, yet no longer manufactured.
Mouse fart loads should be fine. Just a repeat of what reloaders did many decades ago to keep plinking with their (at that time) old revolvers. Let us know how it goes. I'll guess that accuracy will be bad beyond 10 feet, maybe with tumbling, but who knows.
303_enfield
Ultimate Member
Nope again. The .38 S&W wasn't even obsolete in 1954 when S&W made the Mod 36. Mod 36 was a beefed up I frame (S&W Terrier made till 1974). It (Mod 36 5 shot J frame in .38Spl) was released at the COP convention 1954. That may have made the .38S&W start the death spiral. But with all the Victory models an 38/200 Enfields sold in the States after WWII the .38 S&W won't die. S&W carried a few model handguns into 1976 chambered in .38 S&W. They weren't dropped till 1990.
First .38 S&W I bought was a Mod 33 made in 1972. 1920's "obselete" nope
