Post Woollard Win: Should HB45 be Supported or Withdrawn?

SkunkWerX · Mar 6, 2012

Title says it all. What are the Pros and Cons of HB45 in a post-Woollard environment.

My gut says kill the bill. But I do not profess to have 100% of the facts nor the legal background to school everyone, waiting on that.

Thoughts please.

teratos · Mar 6, 2012

Yes, kill it. We need legal precedent which says the 2A applies outside the home so there is no possibility that it can be violated again.

MJD438 · Mar 6, 2012

Shitcan it.

tailboardtech · Mar 6, 2012

MJD438 said:
Shitcan it.

X-2 million

Glaug-Eldare · Mar 6, 2012

This bill needs to die, right now, before it can totally destroy the Woollard decision. He need to [reassess his priorities] and PULL IT. Everything he's said since the decision is painting him as an oblivious [politician] too committed to his preeecioussss to do what's good for gun owners.

Inigoes · Mar 6, 2012

SkunkWerX said:
Title says it all. What are the Pros and Cons of HB45 in a post-Woollard environment.

My gut says kill the bill. But I do not profess to have 100% of the facts nor the legal background to school everyone, waiting on that.

Thoughts please.

Hell, I have been against any legislative feel-good issue bill. I was against it pre-woollard, and I'm still against it post-woollard.

There is no need for us to encourage more restraints on ourselves.

Gray Peterson · Mar 6, 2012

Can it. See Log Cabin Republicans v. United States in the 9th circuit last September

SkunkWerX · Mar 6, 2012

So, if this is the case, with the guidance of counsel, and approval of MSI leadership, what is the way to get this done?

Do we have a direct line to Smeigel, Dwyer and others?

Or would it take an uprising via social media, let's figure this out before we go off half cocked.
AND, let's be expedient about it.

MDFF2008 · Mar 6, 2012

MSI has a few lawyers looking at the impact of the Shall Issue bills to decide a position.

My PERSONAL opinion is they are poison pills and HB-45 is the worst of them.

Norton · Mar 6, 2012

Guys,

I share your sentiments and it is being addressed in the rational manner that you expect from us.

There are numerous attorneys working on this very issue right now putting together briefs on the subject.

We don't need a public brawl over this, but yes, it is indeed very important that it be addressed.

SkunkWerX · Mar 6, 2012

Norton said:
Guys,

I share your sentiments and it is being addressed in the rational manner that you expect from us.

There are numerous attorneys working on this very issue right now putting together briefs on the subject.

We don't need a public brawl over this, but yes, it is indeed very important that it be addressed.

Norton Thanks.
We'll keep it civil, as starter of this thread, if I see it getting bad I'll PM you/mods to lock it down.
Otherwise, drop us a line here, and via MSI and we will do whatever is needed to get the good delegates attention.

Awaiting further orders.

Hear that everyone? Let's keep it orderly and a high level professional discussion.

Steve973 · Mar 6, 2012

Please help me understand how HB-45 differs from the current Wollard ruling. I'm sure there's an effective difference, but this stuff is new to me, so I could use some clarification, please.

MDFF2008 · Mar 6, 2012

Steve973 said:
Please help me understand how HB-45 differs from the current Wollard ruling. I'm sure there's an effective difference, but this stuff is new to me, so I could use some clarification, please.

Here's how I understand it.

Judge Legg ruled that the Good and Substantial clause is unconstitutional. Unconstitutional laws are unenforceable even if they remain on the book.

HB-45 seeks to say "You are presumed to have a good and substantial reason unless the MSP proves otherwise." Delegate Smigiel says the only things they can use are other items in the statue, but HB-45 doesn't say that, he does and the MSP have said it'll be business as usual.

Effectively HB-45 gives new life to a part of the law found unconstitutional. Why would we even dream of reviving G&S after Judge Legg so elegantly killed it?

HB-45 also moots Judge Legg's ruling because it changes the law he ruled on. It would require filing a new case; and wasting 10s of thousands of dollars to do the whole same song and dance over again.

Inigoes · Mar 6, 2012

The Woollard Decision needs to be kept as law. Do what you can to support the SAF/MSI in this endeavor.

This is the first ruling that dictates that the 2A extends beyond the doorstep of the home.

Note: this is a crucial critical step to secure our 2A freedom(s)!

Do not let the politicians undermine it!

OH IT'S KINO · Mar 6, 2012

^ Excellent. Thanks for that clarification. :thumbsup:

** Meant for gprimr1. But thanks to you, too, Inigoes.

Steve973 · Mar 6, 2012

Yes, thanks for that. Come to think of it, HB-45 doesn't specify anything about what would serve as proof that the applicant doesn't have a good reason.

SkunkWerX · Mar 6, 2012

Inigoes said:
The Woollard Decision needs to be kept as law. Do what you can to support the SAF/MSI in this endeavor.

This is the first ruling that dictates that the 2A extends beyond the doorstep of the home.

Note: this is a crucial critical step to secure our 2A freedom(s)!

Do not let the politicians undermine it!

^^THIS^^

MDFF2008 · Mar 6, 2012

Steve973 said:
Yes, thanks for that. Come to think of it, HB-45 doesn't specify anything about what would serve as proof that the applicant doesn't have a good reason.

This has been my complaint with HB-45 since I first read it and people started bashing me for seeing it as a bad bill.

I even tried to address it with Smigiel to no avail.

Abacab · Mar 6, 2012

HB-45 is just terrible.

Gray Peterson · Mar 6, 2012

Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America

Start with page 5. HB45 must be withdrawn.

Post Woollard Win: Should HB45 be Supported or Withdrawn?

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