Cresap Question... (It's been a while...) ;)

Markp · Mar 3, 2010

Seriously...

I know that my SBR is not welcome... got it.

So next logical question... can I bring my AR-15 pistol with scope to CRESAP?

Mark

helg · Mar 3, 2010

I am not a Cresap member, just an occasional shooter there. Right people will definitely correct me if I am wrong.

A few range rules from the set, which is posted here

http://www.cresaprifleclub.com/Cresap Rifle Club Range Rules rev5 - Letter size.pdf

• No pistols with bottleneck center-fire rifle or shotgun cartridges allowed on pistol line
• No rifles are permitted on the pistol benches
• No pistols are permitted at the rifle benches without scopes
• No standing or off hand shooting from the rifle benches is allowed

This makes me thinking that there is no way to shoot 223 (which qualifies as bottleneck center-fire rifle cartridge) on pistol line. Shooting the scoped AR15 pistol at the rifle bench does not seem to be prohibited, but is severely restricted by a position that can be used for the shooting.

Again, I am not a final authority on the issue.

Topher · Mar 3, 2010

I can understand the need for clarification.
In 4 years I don't recall ever seeing anyone shoot an AR15 pistol on the rifle line.
I will discuss it our our monthly meeting this evening.
PM me if I don't get back on this topic. I have a lot going on now.

Thanks for asking.

Chris

Crxflippr · Mar 3, 2010

Forgive my ignorance (and a mild hijack of your thread), but I was curious about shooting Tokarevs there. I know it's not a rifle round but it seems to have a slight bottleneck. No issue right?

armedsks · Mar 3, 2010

are ar15 pistols legal in md??? Im not sure, i havnt really seen them for sale at guns shows in md??

Ive shot my g-31 there before without issues. .357sig

Markp · Mar 3, 2010

armedsks said:
are ar15 pistols legal in md??? Im not sure, i havnt really seen them for sale at guns shows in md??

Ive shot my g-31 there before without issues. .357sig

There is a whole discussion on this, short answer is this:

1. Yes, it is legal to possess an AR-15 pistol in MD.
2. No, you may not transfer an AR-15 pistol in MD because it is not on the handgun roster. (Which explains why you don't see them for sale.)
3. The Bushmaster Assault Pistol is NOT an AR-15.

Mark

Markp · Mar 3, 2010

Crxflippr said:
Forgive my ignorance (and a mild hijack of your thread), but I was curious about shooting Tokarevs there. I know it's not a rifle round but it seems to have a slight bottleneck. No issue right?

Technically it is a sub-machine gun round. Not withstanding, they will let you shoot a Tokarev there (or at least they have in the past.) The point is not to prevent people from firing .357 SIG and Tokarev TTC's, but to prevent people with AK pistols and other rifle round pistols from shooting on the pistol line... Me thinks that the Obrez would not be exactly welcome on the line.

That said, you can shoot a S&W .500 on the pistol line.

Now an interesting question is, if I could shoot a Tokarev TTC on the pistol line, could I shoot a PPS-43 pistol on the line, or If I can shoot a FN-57 on the pistol line, what about my AR-57 pistol? I realize this unfortunately opens a whole can of worms, but the unintended consequences of rules is that we end up having to either deal with exceptions or we are stuck with not compromising in sensible situations. Obviously 5.7x28 and 7.62x25 are not full power rifle rounds, yet they are less powerful than some straight cartridge pistol rounds. One way to possibly change the rule would be to limit the power factor on the pistol line, but that is problematic as well.

Maybe a hybrid of straight walled cartridges and bottle nosed cartridges with a power factor not exceeding a certain number.

Mark

Markp · Mar 3, 2010

Topher said:
I can understand the need for clarification.
In 4 years I don't recall ever seeing anyone shoot an AR15 pistol on the rifle line.
I will discuss it our our monthly meeting this evening.
PM me if I don't get back on this topic. I have a lot going on now.

Thanks for asking.

Chris

Thanks man! I appreciate you asking the question.

Mark

Markp · Mar 5, 2010

BUMP. Can I shoot my AR pistol at CRESAP?

Mark

Cpl. Cornbeef · Mar 5, 2010

Markp said:
There is a whole discussion on this, short answer is this:

1. Yes, it is legal to possess an AR-15 pistol in MD.
2. No, you may not transfer an AR-15 pistol in MD because it is not on the handgun roster. (Which explains why you don't see them for sale.)
3. The Bushmaster Assault Pistol is NOT an AR-15.

Mark

Ahh, but there is one that is on the approved MD roster, the Sig P556. I plan on buying one shortly and it would be nice to know if I can shoot it at Cresap.

Calengor · Mar 5, 2010

Cpl. Cornbeef said:
Ahh, but there is one that is on the approved MD roster, the Sig P556. I plan on buying one shortly and it would be nice to know if I can shoot it at Cresap.

Moot point, as the Sig P556 is not an AR pistol.

Topher · Mar 5, 2010

For those who don't know... I am a member at Cresap.
I have a an update...

Sorry guys... We actually consulted with an attorney and he described the AR pistol as a "grey area".

I don't think "grey" is where the range wants to be.

Chris

Markp · Mar 6, 2010

Topher said:
For those who don't know... I am a member at Cresap.
I have a an update...

Sorry guys... We actually consulted with an attorney and he described the AR pistol as a "grey area".

I don't think "grey" is where the range wants to be.

Chris

Chris,

I appreciate your opinion, but what is the official policy? I'm not trying to be difficult, seriously.

So does that mean all AR based weapons that are not rifles are prohibited at CRESAP at this time?

I think that if a ruling is to be made, that might be the cleanest way of doing so, if you wish to prohibit all "grey" area AR's.

Given that the attorney claimed that the AR pistol is in the "grey" area, would you mind me asking in what way he felt this was a "grey" area? Personally, I cannot think of why the AR pistol itself would be "grey", so if you would be kind enough to elucidate me on it, I really would appreciate it.

I'm not going to argue the rules, after all, I've given you an easy way to implement the rule above by simply banning any AR based weapon that is not a rifle. Given the current rules that seems to be the most congruent with the position that your club wishes to take and I understand the reason why CRESAP as a club is risk adverse. Nothing to gain, and everything to lose at this point. I respect that.

Thanks again!

Mark

PS - One more request, since I might as well blow my load on this question... AK pistols with a scope, are they allowed at the range?

Topher · Mar 6, 2010

I can only tell you what the Club was told by the attorney. Assault style pistols including the AR variants present a very Grey area in MD law.

Based on input from a legal expert, please do not bring any firearm that could be perceived as an assault style pistol to the club.

Falkus · Mar 6, 2010

Topher said:
I can only tell you what the Club was told by the attorney. Assault style pistols including the AR variants present a very Grey area in MD law.

Based on input from a legal expert, please do not bring any firearm that could be perceived as an assault style pistol to the club.

I justfity their needs if they wish to stay out of the "trouble zone", Heck, I have never been there

if you really want to, Go to Elk Neck ....its a public land and you can use it with a fee

xcavater · Mar 6, 2010

Markp said:
Chris,

I appreciate your opinion, but what is the official policy? I'm not trying to be difficult, seriously.

So does that mean all AR based weapons that are not rifles are prohibited at CRESAP at this time?

I think that if a ruling is to be made, that might be the cleanest way of doing so, if you wish to prohibit all "grey" area AR's.

Given that the attorney claimed that the AR pistol is in the "grey" area, would you mind me asking in what way he felt this was a "grey" area? Personally, I cannot think of why the AR pistol itself would be "grey", so if you would be kind enough to elucidate me on it, I really would appreciate it.

I'm not going to argue the rules, after all, I've given you an easy way to implement the rule above by simply banning any AR based weapon that is not a rifle. Given the current rules that seems to be the most congruent with the position that your club wishes to take and I understand the reason why CRESAP as a club is risk adverse. Nothing to gain, and everything to lose at this point. I respect that.

Thanks again!

Mark

PS - One more request, since I might as well blow my load on this question... AK pistols with a scope, are they allowed at the range?

Cresap is a private range that is kind enough to let the public shoot there on the weekends. They are not the State of MD or the US gov't.
I don't think the "public" should be there testing the boundaries of their rules. As a considerate guest maybe "the public" should stay well inside the rules to make life easier for all.

Markp · Mar 6, 2010

xcavater said:
Cresap is a private range that is kind enough to let the public shoot there on the weekends. They are not the State of MD or the US gov't.
I don't think the "public" should be there testing the boundaries of their rules. As a considerate guest maybe "the public" should stay well inside the rules to make life easier for all.

So you think it's inconsiderate to ask the question? Seriously?

I am NOT testing the boundaries of their rules, but I would like to know what weapons that I am and am not allowed to shoot there. When I brought my SBR up there I had no reason to believe that it was "on the boundaries" of anything. It was and is completely legal, just as ALL of my personal weapons are.

My "assault pistols" are also completely legal. I do however respect the answer I was given, it is their club and they get to make the rules. I hope that they will update their rules to reflect the change and I thank Chris for his answer. Don't try to paint this as the "public" (being me in this case) as being rude for buying and shooting weapons that you might be uncomfortable looking at.

I will say this, if CRESAP continues to go down this road of "grey" area restictions, I would expect the next thing to go will be mags above 20 rounds, as it cannot be proven if they were legally purchased and thus might be contraband. After all, if an AR pistol is "grey", high capacity mags are too as the same loophole exists for the procurement of either. I can't transfer or sell a high cap mag or AR pistol in this state, but I can possess both.

Once again Chris, thanks for the quick and honest answer! You guys run a great operation and I appreciate the clarification!

Mark

xcavater · Mar 6, 2010

Markp said:
So you think it's inconsiderate to ask the question? Seriously?

I am NOT testing the boundaries of their rules, but I would like to know what weapons that I am and am not allowed to shoot there. When I brought my SBR up there I had no reason to believe that it was "on the boundaries" of anything. It was and is completely legal, just as ALL of my personal weapons are.

My "assault pistols" are also completely legal. I do however respect the answer I was given, it is their club and they get to make the rules. I hope that they will update their rules to reflect the change and I thank Chris for his answer. Don't try to paint this as the "public" (being me in this case) as being rude for buying and shooting weapons that you might be uncomfortable looking at.

I will say this, if CRESAP continues to go down this road of "grey" area restictions, I would expect the next thing to go will be mags above 20 rounds, as it cannot be proven if they were legally purchased and thus might be contraband. After all, if an AR pistol is "grey", high capacity mags are too as the same loophole exists for the procurement of either. I can't transfer or sell a high cap mag or AR pistol in this state, but I can possess both.

Once again Chris, thanks for the quick and honest answer! You guys run a great operation and I appreciate the clarification!

Mark

No question is a dumb question. The reason it's asked may be, but I'm not arguing that.

It's how the rest of the thread regarding a private club and it's rules digressed; or did it really?

Markp · Mar 6, 2010

xcavater said:
No question is a dumb question. The reason it's asked may be, but I'm not arguing that.

It's how the rest of the thread regarding a private club and it's rules digressed; or did it really?

Are you a CRESAP member, or are you just posting to hear your own voice? I'm not sure what you're trying to add to the discussion.

Mark

xcavater · Mar 6, 2010

I'm just a poor fisherman who is married to the catch of his life.
Mark, I'm not trying to get into a argument with you or anyone else.
I just thought I could submit my views on the subject.

Peace

Cresap Question... (It's been a while...) ;)

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