Form 1 SBR Engraving Debate Thread

Squaregrouper · Mar 8, 2016

I know this has been discussed ad nauseam across the interwebs, but I want to stir the pot...

There is a constant debate as to whether a trust needs to have their approved Form 1 SBR engraved.
After reading the following ATF downloads, I am confident that an existing lower receiver, from a known manufacturer (Spike's, PSA, Anderson, etc) which includes a model and serial number is adequate identification by BATFE standards. It needs no further identifying markings from the person/trust submitting the Form 1 SBR application.
EX- An approved Palmetto State Armory, model PA-15, caliber 5.56mm, barrel length 10.5", overall length 29.5", serial number 123456789 is fine, per ATF's written statements.

Please carefully read sections: 6.2.1, 7.2 and 7.4

https://www.atf.gov/file/58216/download
https://www.atf.gov/file/58221/download

.

AACo · Mar 8, 2016

squaregrouper said:
I know this has been discussed ad nauseam across the interwebs, but I want to stir the pot...

There is a constant debate as to whether a trust needs to have their approved Form 1 SBR engraved.
After reading the following ATF downloads, I am confident that an existing lower receiver, from a known manufacturer (Spike's, PSA, Anderson, etc) which includes a model and serial number is adequate identification by BATFE standards. It needs no further identifying markings from the person/trust submitting the Form 1 SBR application.
EX- An approved Palmetto State Armory, model PA-15, caliber 5.56mm, barrel length 10.5", overall length 29.5", serial number 123456789 is fine, per ATF's written statements.

Please carefully read sections: 6.2.1, 7.2 and 7.4

https://www.atf.gov/file/58216/download
https://www.atf.gov/file/58221/download

.

I'm still going to engrave, but curious what others have to say.

clandestine · Mar 8, 2016

TTAG posted about this too. Supposedly ATF has said that a Title 1 firearm that is converted to a Title 2 Firearm does not have to be engraved unless you SELL it.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/01/foghorn/do-you-need-to-engrave-your-form-1ed-sbr/

NateIU10 · Mar 8, 2016

The NFA Handbook is an awful document, full of errors and omissions.

The ATF has recently addressed what information a maker must engrave on a firearm, to what size and depth the engraving must be done, and what information a maker may adopt from the original manufacturer. This ruling may be found at https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...013-3-adopting-identification-on-firearms.pdf, but I have summarized the pertinent information below.

The NFA at 26 U.S.C. 5842 provides, in relevant part, that anyone making a firearm shall identify each made by a serial number, the name of the maker, and such other identification prescribed by regulation. Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 478.92(a)(1) and 479.102(a) further require the maker of a firearm to legibly identify each firearm made by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number on the frame or receiver of the firearm being made. The CFR further requires the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, and the makers name and city/state (state may be abbreviated using USPS accepted two-letter codes) be engraved on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm being made.

The maker is permitted to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on a firearm, so long as the markings are to ATF specifications of size/depth, and the maker has not previously made a firearm with the same serial number. For firearms originally marked “Multi” as caliber, the maker must mark the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) with the actual caliber/gauge once the caliber or gauge is known. For persons making AR15-type NFA firearms, AR15 barrels are typically marked with caliber information and no additional caliber markings must be made on the firearm, so long as the marking is 'conspicuously' placed.

The ATF has ruled on conspicuous markings as applied to manufacturers/importers in http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2002-6.pdf. If we extrapolate these requirements to makers of NFA firearms, "conspicuous" marking would mean that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. If a lower receiver of an AR15-type firearm is marked "Multi" and the barrel is marked under the handguards so as to be obstructed from plain view, a maker may be required to otherwise engrave the caliber designation on the frame, receiver, or barrel so as to make the caliber marking conspicuous.

The engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. The engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the other information identified above must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. Persons using a trust must engrave their trust name (without abbreviations) and City, State in order to identify the trust itself as the maker.

Squaregrouper · Mar 8, 2016

NateIU10 said:
The NFA Handbook is an awful document, full of errors and omissions.

The ATF has recently addressed what information a maker must engrave on a firearm, to what size and depth the engraving must be done, and what information a maker may adopt from the original manufacturer. This ruling may be found at https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/f...013-3-adopting-identification-on-firearms.pdf, but I have summarized the pertinent information below.

The NFA at 26 U.S.C. 5842 provides, in relevant part, that anyone making a firearm shall identify each made by a serial number, the name of the maker, and such other identification prescribed by regulation. Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 478.92(a)(1) and 479.102(a) further require the maker of a firearm to legibly identify each firearm made by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number on the frame or receiver of the firearm being made. The CFR further requires the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, and the makers name and city/state (state may be abbreviated using USPS accepted two-letter codes) be engraved on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm being made.

The maker is permitted to adopt the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on a firearm, so long as the markings are to ATF specifications of size/depth, and the maker has not previously made a firearm with the same serial number. For firearms originally marked “Multi” as caliber, the maker must mark the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) with the actual caliber/gauge once the caliber or gauge is known. For persons making AR15-type NFA firearms, AR15 barrels are typically marked with caliber information and no additional caliber markings must be made on the firearm, so long as the marking is 'conspicuously' placed.

The ATF has ruled on conspicuous markings as applied to manufacturers/importers in http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2002-6.pdf. If we extrapolate these requirements to makers of NFA firearms, "conspicuous" marking would mean that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. If a lower receiver of an AR15-type firearm is marked "Multi" and the barrel is marked under the handguards so as to be obstructed from plain view, a maker may be required to otherwise engrave the caliber designation on the frame, receiver, or barrel so as to make the caliber marking conspicuous.

The engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. The engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the other information identified above must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. Persons using a trust must engrave their trust name (without abbreviations) and City, State in order to identify the trust itself as the maker.

Nate is an attorney, I am not. That being said, converting an existing Title 1 firearm into a Title 2 firearm is neither making, nor manufacturing a firearm- per The BATFE's own documents.
The ATF documents I provided state nothing about a Form 1 SBR being engraved (from a known receiver) and even go further by saying the original make, model and SN should be kept.

outrider58 · Mar 8, 2016

Why would you have a problem engraving a firearm that you have converted to an SBR or SBS or made into a suppressor? I'm not getting the point.

rtruhn · Mar 8, 2016

outrider58 said:
Why would you have a problem engraving a firearm that you have converted to an SBR or SBS or made into a suppressor? I'm not getting the point.

It may not be a "problem" but it's inconvenient at times to get the engraving done before finishing the build... After months of waiting, additional delay is rubbing salt into the wound.

Squaregrouper · Mar 8, 2016

outrider58 said:
Why would you have a problem engraving a firearm that you have converted to an SBR or SBS or made into a suppressor? I'm not getting the point.

I'm getting mine engraved. If for no reason other than it spells out that it is NFA to unknowing LEO's, RSO's, et al.
The point is that we are led to believe that Form 1 SBR's must be engraved. My Google research backs up the school of thought that most (non 80% lowers) Form 1 SBR's don't need to be engraved. We usually don't make the firearm (receiver), we modify it in to a Title 2 firearm.
Form 1 silencers however, clearly need to be engraved because we are making the silencer/suppressor. This is clearly spelled out in NFA law.

outrider58 · Mar 8, 2016

rtruhn said:
It may not be a "problem" but it's inconvenient at times to get the engraving done before finishing the build... After months of waiting, additional delay is rubbing salt into the wound.

...but you engrave it AFTER the build. Or, at least after receipt of the stamp. There are a lot of class III gun shops now offering on site, come as you are, drop in any time, laser engraving. That's a road trip I am always up for!

rtruhn · Mar 8, 2016

outrider58 said:
...but you engrave it AFTER the build. Or, at least after receipt of the stamp. There are a lot of class III gun shops now offering on site, come as you are, drop in any time, laser engraving. That's a road trip I am always up for!

I have three stamps in as of Monday morning. I'm holding off on assembly but it's tough...

SneakySh0rty · Mar 8, 2016

wasn't this already hashed out about "making" and "manufacturing" on MDShooters? I cant remember the threads nor do I feel like searching for them. Some time where the shenanigans with AR SBRs, when they were denying MD forms. But basically, the thought was that you are in fact "making" or "manufacturing" whatever word you want to use, a new firearm. And if you are doing it under a trust, will need to have your trust info engraved on it.

Roadhawg · Mar 8, 2016

I had mine engraved, a fairly simple process and not that expensive.
Sure will make life easier for the wife some day, if she becomes a beneficiary and has to sell it.

Squaregrouper · Mar 8, 2016

SneakySh0rty said:
wasn't this already hashed out about "making" and "manufacturing" on MDShooters? I cant remember the threads nor do I feel like searching for them. Some time where the shenanigans with AR SBRs, when they were denying MD forms. But basically, the thought was that you are in fact "making" or "manufacturing" whatever word you want to use, a new firearm. And if you are doing it under a trust, will need to have your trust info engraved on it.

I brought this back from the dead because I found ATF written documents disproving what we all "thought" was fact. It appears clear that we don't legally need to engrave Form 1 SBR's made from existing ATF recognized lower receivers.
I'm not stating my findings as fact, rather pointing out that The ATF themselves put in writing documentation refuting what we all were led to believe is fact.
This is open for intelligent debate.

outrider58 · Mar 8, 2016

squaregrouper said:
I brought this back from the dead because I found ATF written documents disproving what we all "thought" was fact. It appears clear that we don't legally need to engrave Form 1 SBR's made from existing ATF recognized lower receivers.
I'm not stating my findings as fact, rather pointing out that The ATF themselves put in writing documentation refuting what we all were led to believe is fact.
This is open for intelligent debate.

Well, for what it's worth, I brought my last approved SBR AR in to my local C-III and un-coupled it from the upper receiver and handed it over to the man behind the counter for engraving. No one gasped for air, no one clicked their tongues. No muss, no fuss.

Squaregrouper · Mar 8, 2016

outrider58 said:
Well, for what it's worth, I brought my last approved SBR AR in to my local C-III and un-coupled it from the upper receiver and handed it over to the man behind the counter for engraving. No one gasped for air, no one clicked their tongues. No muss, no fuss.

As stated previously, I will be getting mine engraved too. My point is that I have found we don't legally need to get them engraved- as commonly taught.
That is all I'm trying to point out; nothing more, nothing less.

NateIU10 · Mar 8, 2016

squaregrouper said:
As stated previously, I will be getting mine engraved too. My point is that I have found we don't legally need to get them engraved- as commonly taught.
That is all I'm trying to point out; nothing more, nothing less.

I don't understand how that jives with ATF's actual, legal position in Rule 2013-3 I linked to above. The NFA handbook is nothing but a guide, and has an incredible amount of inaccurate/legally incorrect information in it.

In part:

The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of the State) as specified under his/her Federal firearms license (if a licensee);

Also 26 USC 5822

No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law.

Squaregrouper · Mar 8, 2016

Nate- As stated previously, you are an attorney and I am not.
My issue is with "make" and/or "manufacture" of a firearm. The BATFE makes it clear that someone converting an existing Title 1 firearm into a Title 2 firearm is not "making/manufacturing" the firearm- as it is already a firearm recognized by The BATFE. With a Form 1, they are merely converting it into an Title 2 NFA Firearm- not "making it".
With all due respect (seriously), please explain the flaw in my logic.

slowpoke · Mar 8, 2016

Obviously there are plenty of contradictions and inconsistencies in ATF rules.

Interestingly, the name of Form 1 just happens to be "Application to Make and Register a Firearm"

dontpanic · Mar 8, 2016

outrider58 said:
...but you engrave it AFTER the build. Or, at least after receipt of the stamp. There are a lot of class III gun shops now offering on site, come as you are, drop in any time, laser engraving. That's a road trip I am always up for!

Absolutely no reason to wait on the stamp. I cannot understand why uou should have to wait. They are your firearms and you can engrave anything on them whenever you want.

Just can't alter the original ser#, etc.

I engraved mine well before my stamps came in.

NateIU10 · Mar 9, 2016

squaregrouper said:
Nate- As stated previously, you are an attorney and I am not.
My issue is with "make" and/or "manufacture" of a firearm. The BATFE makes it clear that someone converting an existing Title 1 firearm into a Title 2 firearm is not "making/manufacturing" the firearm- as it is already a firearm recognized by The BATFE. With a Form 1, they are merely converting it into an Title 2 NFA Firearm- not "making it".
With all due respect (seriously), please explain the flaw in my logic.

I believe it to be perfectly clear the opposite, actually. 26 USC 522 is about "Making" an NFA firearm. By turning a firearm from a Title 1 into a Title 2 firearm, you are labsolutely making a firearm pursuant to 26 USC 522, IMO.

Where are you seeing this clear info, because the NFA handbook you point to even states (which is superseded by the ATF ruling discussed earlier anyway):

The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements.

Form 1 SBR Engraving Debate Thread

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