SBR in MD question

K-Romulus · Apr 5, 2013

What these guys said - start the MSP process ASAP. Tip- Do NOT sign the forms until you drop them off in Pikesville.

If MSP signs off, then it gives the chance that ATF will approve after 1 OCT 2013. Still, ATF may not cuz of the new MD law, but it will refund your tax money so you've got nothing to lose by trying and at least getting MSP signoff.

I think it is an open question whether SBR AR15s will be banned as far as Form 1 signoff by MSP after 1 OCT 2013. For example, a machine gun can have a short barrel, but it is still a "machine gun" not a SBR requiring a new tax stamp to shorten the barrel, right? Will AR15s in MD be in the same boat? They are already "banned" by name so why would barrel length matter?

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

Markp · Apr 5, 2013

CATMdude said:
I think some SBRs will be a no-go. Is it an SBR AR? Then it's a copy of a Colt AR-15, thus banned. As would SBR AKs, Uzis, etc...

ETA: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't overall length measured in the rifle/shotgun's longest configuration? ie: with a collapsible stock fully extended

That depends on who you ask, the rules vary from state to state, MD may decide that overall length is measured after you removal all parts not permanently attached, if that is what they so desire to do. Some states measure the longest possible configuration, others measure the shortest, some are silent which implies current configuration.

It's arbitrary. If I own an AR with 2 uppers, a 16" and a 24" barrel, with a standard A2 stock lower, what is the overall length of my rifle?

Is it 34.25", 42.25", both, or neither?

Now I replace the A2 stock with a collapsible stock allowing me to reach 28.5"-31.5" with a 16" barrel, what is the OAL? Is it the longest configuration? The shortest? or current configuration?

What a mess!

Imagine A2 stock, 10" barrel, 6" suppressor pinned in place is legal at > 29" but a 16" M4 clone is illegal because it has a collapsible stock?

Yes, it could happen, especially with the politicians we have currently!!!

M

Clearly the answer is simple... Pin a suppressor to everything you wanted to SBR previously. Keeping the legislature happy!

strube · Apr 6, 2013

I've got a form 1 to SBR a lower I have now going into the mail soon myself after I get my trust finalized.

If the ATF really considers this to be a new build completely then you may loose grandfathering and be denied if you try to SBR a named assault weapon. This is further complicated in Maryland because of the copycat OAL requirements. If that's the case then you have nothing to loose as the ATF will just deny you after Oct and refund your money.

If the ATF allows the state grandfathering laws to stand then you should get an approval on a pre-ban weapon regardless of when you do it. I've done some research and it seems that the ATF continues to process stamps for builds in other states with AWBs with a pre-ban lower still being pre-ban and a post still being a post and restricted as such. This means that there isn't any rush to getting the paperwork in.

There are some corner cases where rushing it could pay off though. If the ATF is ramping up to deny new form 1s in MD ahead of Oct they could approve your paperwork slightly earlier then the current 6 month turn around. There is also the possibility that the ATF considers the form 1 to meet the "purchase order" requirement and as long as you submit pre Oct you are fine.

There of course is a "nuclear" scenario where MD and the ATF disagree about all this and the ATF grants your form 1 and MD promptly seizes your SBR and/or charges you with possession of an illegal assault weapon.

annihilation-time · Apr 6, 2013

Incorrect information removed.

Mobile · Apr 7, 2013

It's not a "long" gun if the law specifically calls it a "short" barreled rifle, is it? :innocent0

But I suppose it's going to be up to the caprices of the MSP legal section.

karleb · Apr 26, 2013

The silly laws in this state are so frustrating. I *want* to do this the correct/lawful way but I can't even get a straight answer from MSP. Way to go MD - passing laws that are overly confusing and open to interpretation.

erwos · Apr 26, 2013

annihilation-time said:
The bill specifically says an assault weapon is a long gun; therefore, the 29 inch OAL rule only applies to long guns.

No, it doesn't. It says assault weapons include "assault long guns", which are not defined as long guns, but rather as the currently-defined list of regulated firearms.

It also says that "assault weapons" includes "copycat weapons". The copycat weapon OAL test applies to "rifles".

In any case, you will DEFINITELY be safe if you get a form 4 SBR before the ban, so long as your FFL has possession of it before October.

bobthefisher · Apr 27, 2013

erwos said:
No, it doesn't. It says assault weapons include "assault long guns", which are not defined as long guns, but rather as the currently-defined list of regulated firearms.

It also says that "assault weapons" includes "copycat weapons". The copycat weapon OAL test applies to "rifles".

In any case, you will DEFINITELY be safe if you get a form 4 SBR before the ban, so long as your FFL has possession of it before October.

This! For those of you that want an SBR for sure before Oct. 1st. Take the firearm(s) you want to be SBR'd to an FFL07 Class III manufacturer and have them do the conversion, so they can put it on a Form 4. They usually can have this done within a month. That way you'll have verifiable purchase order for the SBR before Oct. 1st, although it'll be on a Form 4 and not a Form 1. No big deal. Duffy's Gun Room in Sparks, Maryland is pretty good with this service. I'm currently doing this on a PPS-43C in 7.62x25 Tok. Good people, ask for John.

annihilation-time · Apr 29, 2013

erwos said:
No, it doesn't. It says assault weapons include "assault long guns", which are not defined as long guns, but rather as the currently-defined list of regulated firearms.

It also says that "assault weapons" includes "copycat weapons". The copycat weapon OAL test applies to "rifles".

In any case, you will DEFINITELY be safe if you get a form 4 SBR before the ban, so long as your FFL has possession of it before October.

Thanks for pointing that out. Poorly written comment removed.

Markp · Apr 29, 2013

erwos said:
No, it doesn't. It says assault weapons include "assault long guns", which are not defined as long guns, but rather as the currently-defined list of regulated firearms.

It also says that "assault weapons" includes "copycat weapons". The copycat weapon OAL test applies to "rifles".

In any case, you will DEFINITELY be safe if you get a form 4 SBR before the ban, so long as your FFL has possession of it before October.

SBR's are NOT rifles, per MD law they are handguns... See relevant criminal code and public safety code.

United States Code:
ATF weapons definitions are located in 26 USC 5845(a) of the internal revenue service code.

Maryland Criminal Code §4-201(c) states:

(c) Handgun.-
(1) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
(2) "Handgun" includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.
(3) "Handgun" does not include a shotgun, rifle, or antique firearm.

Maryland Public Safety Code §5-101(n) states:

(n) Handgun.-
(1) "Handgun" means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) "Handgun" includes signal, starter, and blank pistols.

Maryland Public Safety Code §5-203. Possession of short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun

(a) Prohibited. -- A person may not possess a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun unless:

(1) the person, while on official business is:
(i) a member of the law enforcement personnel of the federal government, the State, or a political subdivision of the State;
(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard while on duty or traveling to or from duty;
(iii) a member of the law enforcement personnel of another state or a political subdivision of another state, while temporarily in this State;
(iv) a warden or correctional officer of a correctional facility in the State; or
(v) a sheriff or a temporary or full-time deputy sheriff; or

(2) the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle has been registered with the federal government in accordance with federal law.

(b) Burden of proof. -- In a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.
(c) Penalty. -- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 5 years or a fine not exceeding $ 5,000 or both.

Lex Armarum · Apr 30, 2013

PUBLIC SAFETY
TITLE 5. FIREARMS
SUBTITLE 2. RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-203 (2012)
§ 5-203. Possession of short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun

(a) Prohibited. -- A person may not possess a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun unless:

(1) the person, while on official business is:

(i) a member of the law enforcement personnel of the federal government, the State, or a political subdivision of the State;

(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard while on duty or traveling to or from duty;

(iii) a member of the law enforcement personnel of another state or a political subdivision of another state, while temporarily in this State;

(iv) a warden or correctional officer of a correctional facility in the State; or

(v) a sheriff or a temporary or full-time deputy sheriff; or

(2) the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle has been registered with the federal government in accordance with federal law.

(b) Burden of proof. -- In a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.

(c) Penalty. -- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 5 years or a fine not exceeding $ 5,000 or both.

Last I checked, SB281 did not abrogate this section of the Code. Not saying, just saying...

Markp · Apr 30, 2013

Rusty Shackleford said:
Last I checked, SB281 did not abrogate this section of the Code. Not saying, just saying...

Thanks!

erwos · Apr 30, 2013

Markp said:
SBR's are NOT rifles, per MD law they are handguns... See relevant criminal code and public safety code.

I have. You left off something very relevant.

Maryland Criminal Code 4-201 said:
(f) "Short–barreled rifle" means:
(1) a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long; or
(2) a weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that was made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise.

I appreciate the fervor people have for my reading of the law, but it's not the only one possible, especially if you sprinkle a little "interpretation due to legislative intent" in there.

Markp · Apr 30, 2013

erwos said:
I have. You left off something very relevant.

I appreciate the fervor people have for my reading of the law, but it's not the only one possible, especially if you sprinkle a little "interpretation due to legislative intent" in there.

You can either believe Rusty Shackleford (A lawyer) or we can go with your stretch which contradicts everything else in the law.
Let's look at this again...

Remember as you read this: The law states clearly that SBR's are handguns and that rifles are NOT handguns.

(c) Handgun.-

(1) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
(2) "Handgun" includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.
(3) "Handgun" does not include a shotgun, rifle, or antique firearm.

This precedes the definition of Rifle and SBR.
Rifles ARE NOT handguns (very specific)
SBR's ARE handguns (very specific)

SBR's cannot be rifles, because rifles ARE NOT handguns and SBR's ARE handguns!

(e) Rifle.- "Rifle" means a weapon that is:

(1) designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; and
(2) designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Great. So we know a rifle is ANY weapon that that was meant to be shouldered and fires a single round for each pull of the trigger. You are correct in that it does not specify barrel length here. However, once we refine the definition further by adding the SBR, things change. The definition of "short barreled rifle" is stating that if you have a barrel of less than 16" on what was otherwise a rifle, it is NOW a "short barreled rifle".

(f) "Short–barreled rifle" means:
(1) a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long; or
(2) a weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that was made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise.

It is not trying to indicate that a short barreled rifle is a rifle, otherwise the definition of "rifle" would include "short barreled rifle" like the definition of handgun does.

So what is a rifle, it is a weapon with barrels in excess of 16" because otherwise it would be a short barreled rifle.

erwos · Apr 30, 2013

Again, Mark, you do not need to ****ing repeat the very argument I made to you months ago over PM. There is some kind of bizarre irony that people are doing this to me - I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BECAUSE I AM THE GUY WHO CAME UP WITH IT. You need to address what I am saying instead of repeating MY WORDS over and over.

Markp said:
You can either believe Rusty Shackleford (A lawyer) or we can go with your stretch which contradicts everything else in the law.

*shrugs* Tell me why factory SBRs don't need to be on the roster or transferred as regulated if they're handguns. That contradicts the law, yet here we are. You underestimate the level of latitude that the MSP/AG gets in interpreting the law, which is what I'm trying to point out. It says SBRs are rifles. Bam, that's the cover the AG needs. That's why we need clarification.

Also, with all due respect to Rusty, I'm plenty smart and well-educated, and know the law damned well. I can come up with my own well-informed opinions, even if they're not the same as his.

Markp · Apr 30, 2013

erwos said:
Again, Mark, you do not need to ****ing repeat the very argument I made to you months ago over PM. There is some kind of bizarre irony that people are doing this to me - I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BECAUSE I AM THE GUY WHO CAME UP WITH IT. You need to address what I am saying instead of repeating MY WORDS over and over.

Don't get your panties in a wad... the fact is, we are not the problem. The state law was written by illiterates who would have difficulty graduating high school today. I am not trying to insult your intelligence, I am simply acknowledging that I am NOT a lawyer and NOT an expert on the law. I can merely read and I might even be completely wrong! I am trying to wrap my head around this like most everyone else. I apologize if you have taken offense to what I posted.

To address why they are not regulated, well, according to §5-101(n) they should be regulated. It's pretty clear that the people administering the law don't understand it, many FFL's haven't read it and simply do whatever MSP tells them, and the handgun roster would apply since §5-401(c) Handgun.- "Handgun" has the meaning stated in §4-201 of the Criminal Law Article. What the law says and what FFL's/MSP are doing has not aligned for quite some time.

We'll see how this shakes out, I don't believe that SBR's are in trouble for those obvious reasons, although bringing them in on a Form 4 may be, creating them on a Form 1 is not. You seem to think otherwise, why can't you accept that you are right? SBR's cannot be both handguns and rifles. That seems pretty clear.

SBR in MD question

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