80% lower?

nrvous · Oct 28, 2014

If you build a ar15 using a 80% lower is it Legal to transport and use at a range?

l730dc · Oct 28, 2014

Tacticalglobe · Oct 28, 2014

I have been reading and hearing all kinds of different opinions on this subject.
Does anyone know where I could find any legit legal literature ?

I'm looking forward in building one, but I'm sure not willing to risk my collection over a build in this wonderful libtard state.

ibanez320dx · Oct 28, 2014

I don't know if you will find a definitive answer to that question in any MD state law. But its not illegal to build a fire arm that IS legal in that state. Same as buying a lower and building it yourself in a legal manner.

kalister1 · Oct 28, 2014

https://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-10.htm

Manufacturing

ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license. For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms. Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license.

Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”).

Fox123 · Oct 28, 2014

Tacticalglobe said:
I have been reading and hearing all kinds of different opinions on this subject.
Does anyone know where I could find any legit legal literature ?

I'm looking forward in building one, but I'm sure not willing to risk my collection over a build in this wonderful libtard state.

Laws are written as to what you cannot do. Laws don't tell you what you can do. So if it is not written that it is illegal, then it is legal.

TheBulge · Oct 28, 2014

nrvous said:
If you build a ar15 using a 80% lower is it Legal to transport and use at a range?

Yes its legal, but you would have to configure it in a non banned form like a hbar, 9mm, SBR, etc.

nrvous · Oct 28, 2014

I have a pre ban upper I was planning on using. It sounds like it needs to be a hbar instead.
Thanks for all the input

MKR03 · Oct 28, 2014

nrvous said:
I have a pre ban upper I was planning on using. It sounds like it needs to be a hbar instead.
Thanks for all the input

Pre-ban/post-ban applies to the lower, not the upper. If you had milled out the lower prior to 10/13, you could build it how you want. Same as purchasing a stripped lower today.

Pinecone · Oct 29, 2014

There is a question if you milled it (or bought a lower) pre-Oct 1, 2103 into any configuration.

The word I got from MSP Licensing Division is that they do not have guidance at this time. So may or may not be legal.

HBAR, Pistol or SBAR IS legal.

Sticky · Oct 29, 2014

Correct... MSP has not yet written COMAR regs that define what you can do with a 'pre-ban' lower, so to err on the side of caution would be wise, thus an HBAR rifle with oal greater than 29" or an AR pistol configuration.

Merlin593 · Oct 29, 2014

Sticky said:
Correct... MSP has not yet written COMAR regs that define what you can do with a 'pre-ban' lower, so to err on the side of caution would be wise, thus an HBAR rifle with oal greater than 29" or an AR pistol configuration.

No one (AKA the state) really knows what you would build your pre or post ban 80% lower into since they are non documented right?

It is lawful to have drilled one out pre or post Oct. 2013.
They would have to prove WHEN you drilled out the lower and I'd guess that would be damn near impossible.

If you purchased an 80% lower now, then technically you should build it as an HBAR, pistol etc. based on Maryland law but still it is unregistered and thus making it impossible to track.
Am I missing something?

Sticky · Oct 29, 2014

Merlin593 said:
No one (AKA the state) really knows what you would build your pre or post ban 80% lower into since they are non documented right?

It is lawful to have drilled one out pre or post Oct. 2013.
They would have to prove WHEN you drilled out the lower and I'd guess that would be damn near impossible.

If you purchased an 80% lower now, then technically you should build it as an HBAR, pistol etc. based on Maryland law but still it is unregistered and thus making it impossible to track.
Am I missing something?

No, don't think you are missing something, but... I prefer to err on the side of caution try to follow the laws, as best we can interpret them, considering the lack of definitions from the MSP.... therefore I can prove when I did the finishing of my 'unregistered lowers' and also have the needed evidence to demonstrate that the builds I did before 10/1 were legal and completed prior to then. I would hate to get to court one day for some reason and not have that on my side, nor am I about to put myself in a position where I knowingly violated MD or Federal laws, but that is just me. Others are free to take that risk, but personally I don't think it's worth the jail time, nor do I want that lurking in the back of my mind.. LOL

edit** - I also would not put it past a court of law to ask you to prove when you built a particular weapon, that would now be considered banned. It is easy enough for them to track your every purchase and produce evidence (unless you do all your purchases ftf for cash with trusted individuals for all the parts you need) to the contrary if you obtained any of the parts after 10/1... Just not worth the risk if you ask me..

MKR03 · Oct 29, 2014

Merlin593 said:
No one (AKA the state) really knows what you would build your pre or post ban 80% lower into since they are non documented right?

It is lawful to have drilled one out pre or post Oct. 2013.
They would have to prove WHEN you drilled out the lower and I'd guess that would be damn near impossible.

If you purchased an 80% lower now, then technically you should build it as an HBAR, pistol etc. based on Maryland law but still it is unregistered and thus making it impossible to track.
Am I missing something?

Whether we're talking about 80% lowers or complete lowers....firearms laws or theft or indecent exposure or murder...anytime you find yourself at the defendant's table in criminal court, the burden is on the state to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In this case, would it be "damn near impossible?" Probably....but the idea is not to end up in court in the first place. I don't think anyone on here would argue that an 80% lower purchased today (and thus completed after 10/13) would have to be built into a pistol, HBAR or SBR just like a stripped lower purchased today. It's clearly up for discussion as to what you can legally do with a pre 10/13 lower (stripped or 80% completed before 10/13). I wouldn't say anything is "impossible to track" unless you bought everything in cash and FTF (nothing shipped to your house). Also, you never know who may be monitoring a public forum like this, so although you were just asking hypothetical questions and wouldn't intentionally violate the law, just be careful what you say. It's nice to have legal discussions on here, but by virtue of the fact that there's disagreement, it's safe to say that there's some guessing/interpreting going on. At the end of the day, you have to do your due diligence and make a decision that you can live with. Like Sticky said, I would just err on the side of caution and do what you KNOW is legal, and not gamble with what MIGHT be legal. But of course, this is JMO and I'm just some guy on the internet.

Pinecone · Oct 30, 2014

However, even if you win your case, you will have some very large legal bills. And possibly your firearms (all of them) confiscated, and another legal battle to get them back.

Your choice if it is worth it.

Merlin593 · Oct 30, 2014

never implied I would break any laws...
just clarifying some questions I had after reading the first few posts.
I'm not sure why our legislature continues to draft laws that are so vague and poorly written that even law enforcement can't make a determination of what is legal and what is not but it seems to go on nonstop in this State(and not just related to guns either).
I guess that what lawyers are for....

Pinecone · Nov 3, 2014

Remember many legislators are lawyers. So they pass laws that guarantee work for lawyers.

NO grin.

80% lower?

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