First NFA items - wow !

I have fired full auto HK MP5s a couple of times. I was underwhelmed. Neat, but not worth the price to me.

Thompson was cool from a nostalgic POV, but again, nothing I would spend that money on.

M-16 was OK, but I can put a lot of rounds on target with a semi auto with a good trigger.

Now an M249. THAT I could get into. Loved shooting that in Vegas.

Any of the airborne Gatling guns would be fun also. But I have not fired the MiniGun or Vulcan. Only the GAU-8A.

OrbitalEllipses said:

You're just about the only person I've ever heard that from. Compared 9mm to 45 in person, big thanks to Vince. Different type of noise, both subsonic. What's better about the .45 can? The .45 can be used on a 9mm host without issue and suppresses within single digit dB - this won't make a difference to your ear. What else is better about .45? It's all subsonic, whereas subsonic 9mm costs about 30% more per cartridge on average.

I use a 45 caliber can on my 9mm host (and my future 45 caliber host).

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Actually it was rsideout that told me that. As the owner of like 17 cans or whatever, I believed him. However he also showed me in person. We shot the two next to each other and the 9mm was significantly better. Actually the 45acp was loud enough that I did not feel it was worth getting one. I am far from an expert on Cans... maybe he just has a bad can or host or something? However from my first hand experience so far, I would not get one. That said, I would love for someone to prove this experience unique as I am very open minded on the issue. Not being an expert on the issue, I usually tell me to try it out first and make the call for themselves.

HT4 said:

What's your list? If I didn't have any, and was planning on only buying 5 cans, they would be:

.22LR
7.62
.45
5.56
9mm

Bought in that order. 7.62 and .45 can be used on 5.56 and 9mm until the list is filled.

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I was thinking:
22LR (FA rated)
9mm Pistol
9mm SMG (FA rated)
.223 (FA rated)
7.62 (FA rated)

blackseven said:

Shot an M11 this past weekend (Not mine) I couldn't own one. I'd waste entirely too much ammo feeding it. It was awesome though. Had a couple different uppers for it, one of them had a can on it. The bolt clacking was the loudest part of the gun. Loved every second of it.

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Well the key with FA is you shoot it less often but when you do you make up for it... You still end up shooting a bit more but its worth it!

Pinecone said:

I have fired full auto HK MP5s a couple of times. I was underwhelmed. Neat, but not worth the price to me.

Thompson was cool from a nostalgic POV, but again, nothing I would spend that money on.

M-16 was OK, but I can put a lot of rounds on target with a semi auto with a good trigger.

Now an M249. THAT I could get into. Loved shooting that in Vegas.

Any of the airborne Gatling guns would be fun also. But I have not fired the MiniGun or Vulcan. Only the GAU-8A.

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Well you don't need to spend the $25K for a MP5 or Thompson to get into FA. You can get an upgraded Mac for well $5-6K. Its not quite as nice as a MP5 but still really nice to handle. Few of us are out buying $25-$30K MGs. There are a lot of MGs for far less that you might be more to your liking. Then again, as I said, its not for everyone. Some just do not appreciate accuracy in quantity and speed.

Pinecone said:

Uuuh, OK. Please PM me the IP's name. Thanks.

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Hmmm. I don't have inside information, but I know that one IP' has been getting a boatload of WOA barrels for the last year... including some custom stuff with their own name on it. And I also know that if you search "white oak" on this forum, you will find that most of the threads from the last year come from one IP's sub-forum.

Just sayin'

TyFromMD said:

As soon as I find a used remington 870 magnum receiver with mag tube attached, I'll be sending another Form 1 for an SBS.

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That's on my list also.

FYI - There's a bunch on GB right now... from new virgin police and marine magnum receivers, to pre-owned disasters that are begging for a good bead blasting.

IMBLITZVT said:

Actually it was rsideout that told me that. As the owner of like 17 cans or whatever, I believed him. However he also showed me in person. We shot the two next to each other and the 9mm was significantly better. Actually the 45acp was loud enough that I did not feel it was worth getting one. I am far from an expert on Cans... maybe he just has a bad can or host or something? However from my first hand experience so far, I would not get one. That said, I would love for someone to prove this experience unique as I am very open minded on the issue. Not being an expert on the issue, I usually tell me to try it out first and make the call for themselves.

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Interesting. The difference between suppressed and unsuppressed .45 is huge for me while the difference between suppressed 45 and suppressed 9 was insignificant. Like I said, the sound each makes is very different, but both were hearing safe and I couldn't classify one as louder than the other. I'll have to conduct the experiment myself I guess.

If I want quiet suppression, I shoot 22. Nothing else comes close, that I have access to currently.

HT4 said:

Hmmm. I don't have inside information, but I know that one IP' has been getting a boatload of WOA barrels for the last year... including some custom stuff with their own name on it. And I also know that if you search "white oak" on this forum, you will find that most of the threads from the last year come from one IP's sub-forum.

Just sayin'

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No one knows who that could be...even heard they were selling horrendously overpriced 22LR!

IMBLITZVT said:

Actually it was rsideout that told me that. As the owner of like 17 cans or whatever, I believed him. However he also showed me in person. We shot the two next to each other and the 9mm was significantly better. Actually the 45acp was loud enough that I did not feel it was worth getting one. I am far from an expert on Cans... maybe he just has a bad can or host or something? However from my first hand experience so far, I would not get one. That said, I would love for someone to prove this experience unique as I am very open minded on the issue. Not being an expert on the issue, I usually tell me to try it out first and make the call for themselves.

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Matt, you shot the following guns suppressed side by side:

HK USP9SD
SWR Trident
158 gr. Fiocchi subsonic. 935FPS

HK 45 Tactical
AAC Ti-Rant 45
230 gr. standard ammo, I don't remember the brand. ~830+FPS

Both are excellent hosts and factory set up for suppressors. The cans are also both very good. That 9mm ammo is hands down, the quietest 9mm that I have found. That ammo in the 9mm is quieter than the 45 side by side. Even though the .45 is about 100 fps slower, it's a just a bigger hole which makes it a little harder to suppress. Just my $.02.

OrbitalEllipses said:

Interesting. The difference between suppressed and unsuppressed .45 is huge for me while the difference between suppressed 45 and suppressed 9 was insignificant. Like I said, the sound each makes is very different, but both were hearing safe and I couldn't classify one as louder than the other. I'll have to conduct the experiment myself I guess...:

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Yeah of course suppressed 45acp is a lot better. What I was saying is it was not good enough for me to want a can in that caliber as 9mm seemed like a better option. Frankly the 45acp seemed maybe just a little over the border on hearing safe but its been a while. I noticed a significant difference between 9mm and 45acp. This was done without any ear protection and not scientifically. Just by my hearing.

rsideout said:

Matt, you shot the following guns suppressed side by side:

HK USP9SD
SWR Trident
158 gr. Fiocchi subsonic. 935FPS

HK 45 Tactical
AAC Ti-Rant 45
230 gr. standard ammo, I don't remember the brand. ~830+FPS

Both are excellent hosts and factory set up for suppressors. The cans are also both very good. That 9mm ammo is hands down, the quietest 9mm that I have found. That ammo in the 9mm is quieter than the 45 side by side. Even though the .45 is about 100 fps slower, it's a just a bigger hole which makes it a little harder to suppress. Just my $.02.

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I don't recall exactly which hosts or can you used to prove this to me but I did hear what you were talking about. Maybe I need to give 45acp another listen to but it seemed to me that the 45acp was just loud enough to slightly bother my hearing and given that 9mm is another great option, I just wrote 45acp off... maybe I jumped the gun or can in this case but compared to 9mm I have not been overly impressed with 45acp suppression.

O.E. I am not trying to say 45 cans are junk or don't work... I am just saying that given my observations I planned to skip a 45acp can and concentrate on 9mm suppression only for handguns (other than 22LR). If I had a 45ACP handgun I was dying to suppress, yeah I might still consider buying one but I don't. For someone looking for the next thing to buy, I would suggest 9mm cans hands down over 45acp given what I have heard so far.

funny the way we all think differently. I chose a tyrant 45, because .45ACP is subsonic. subsonic 9mm is harder to find and it costs more.

IMBLITZVT said:

Actually it was rsideout that told me that. As the owner of like 17 cans or whatever, I believed him. However he also showed me in person. We shot the two next to each other and the 9mm was significantly better. Actually the 45acp was loud enough that I did not feel it was worth getting one. I am far from an expert on Cans... maybe he just has a bad can or host or something? However from my first hand experience so far, I would not get one. That said, I would love for someone to prove this experience unique as I am very open minded on the issue. Not being an expert on the issue, I usually tell me to try it out first and make the call for themselves.

Well you don't need to spend the $25K for a MP5 or Thompson to get into FA. You can get an upgraded Mac for well $5-6K. Its not quite as nice as a MP5 but still really nice to handle. Few of us are out buying $25-$30K MGs. There are a lot of MGs for far less that you might be more to your liking. Then again, as I said, its not for everyone. Some just do not appreciate accuracy in quantity and speed.

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The only real comparison would be with the same manufacturer's cans in the two calibers.

I was only posting my personal experience. Sometime I will have to try a MAC.

Oh, and I also shot a Sten many years ago. VERY underwhelming.

HT4 said:

That's on my list also.



FYI - There's a bunch on GB right now... from new virgin police and marine magnum receivers, to pre-owned disasters that are begging for a good bead blasting.

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Thanks I'll check it out!

IMBLITZVT said:

Yeah of course suppressed 45acp is a lot better. What I was saying is it was not good enough for me to want a can in that caliber as 9mm seemed like a better option. Frankly the 45acp seemed maybe just a little over the border on hearing safe but its been a while. I noticed a significant difference between 9mm and 45acp. This was done without any ear protection and not scientifically. Just by my hearing.



I don't recall exactly which hosts or can you used to prove this to me but I did hear what you were talking about. Maybe I need to give 45acp another listen to but it seemed to me that the 45acp was just loud enough to slightly bother my hearing and given that 9mm is another great option, I just wrote 45acp off... maybe I jumped the gun or can in this case but compared to 9mm I have not been overly impressed with 45acp suppression.

O.E. I am not trying to say 45 cans are junk or don't work... I am just saying that given my observations I planned to skip a 45acp can and concentrate on 9mm suppression only for handguns (other than 22LR). If I had a 45ACP handgun I was dying to suppress, yeah I might still consider buying one but I don't. For someone looking for the next thing to buy, I would suggest 9mm cans hands down over 45acp given what I have heard so far.

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Not trying to argue about which is better, but for those of us not deep into the game a .45 caliber can can cover multiple calibers while a 9mm is more limited. How bout this. I have a .45 can, 9mm host, and both 147gr & 158gr ammo. Do you have a 9mm can? I'd love to compare your can and my can on my gun with my ammo.

My next "fun-gun" purchase will likely be a suppressed .45, but that will likely wait til birthday time next year. Can't decide if it's a USP 45 Tactical, HK45 Tactical, or Mark 23.

ducrider45 said:

funny the way we all think differently. I chose a tyrant 45, because .45ACP is subsonic. subsonic 9mm is harder to find and it costs more.

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Yep, large part of why I bought a .45 can....but I have a 9mm host because I'm a wimp.

Since when does 147 grain 9mm cost more than .45 acp? Usually pretty easy to find also.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...s-9mm-luger-147-grain-fmj-50-rounds?a=1583552

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...ics-45-auto-230-grain-fmj-50-rounds?a=1583555

I can usually find American 147 grain for $14 per box of 50 if you keep an eye out.

I don't recall saying it cost MORE than .45 acp. I said I've found it costs ~30% more than supersonic 9mm and when I bought my can it was impossible to find. Regardless, I have a .45 can that I shoot on a 9mm host using 9mm subsonics...

158gr Fiocchi (my preferred 9mm subsonic) is usually around the price of .45, but I've seen it dip to ~$16/17 per box.

ducrider45 said:

funny the way we all think differently. I chose a tyrant 45, because .45ACP is subsonic. subsonic 9mm is harder to find and it costs more.

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OrbitalEllipses said:

Yep, large part of why I bought a .45 can....but I have a 9mm host because I'm a wimp.

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OrbitalEllipses said:

I don't recall saying it cost MORE than .45 acp.

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Guess that could be interpreted either way.

But gotcha.

Ah, that's not very clear on my part, you're right.

115/124gr 9mm can be had at $0.20/round while 147/158gr is in the $0.30 and higher range; that's what I meant. As for .45, you should be finding it at $0.40 and higher, but it's all subsonic.

OrbitalEllipses said:

Not trying to argue about which is better, but for those of us not deep into the game a .45 caliber can can cover multiple calibers while a 9mm is more limited. How bout this. I have a .45 can, 9mm host, and both 147gr & 158gr ammo. Do you have a 9mm can? I'd love to compare your can and my can on my gun with my ammo.

My next "fun-gun" purchase will likely be a suppressed .45, but that will likely wait til birthday time next year. Can't decide if it's a USP 45 Tactical, HK45 Tactical, or Mark 23...

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Yup, just talking. Certainly not every solution works for everyone. The guy who has nothing put 1911s...certainly does not want to buy a 9mm can. The 45 can does have the advantage of being able to be used on a 9mm gun. Certainly a plus. It will be a bit louder I would imagine but yes the flexibility is nice and certainly something to be considered, I agree.

I do own a 9mm can but its a SMG suppressor for my Mac. Its really not something for pistols. rsideout is the guy to get with if you are willing to come out to the AGC MG shoots. We have one tomorrow, I don't know if he will be there but he always has a few cans on him. Not trying to volunteer you Rich...

For me, I am not a big suppressor guy. One suppressed pistol is enough. So I would like to get the best sounding one rather than the most flexible. I don't have a gun in 45acp that I want to suppress and after hearing the difference, it made it easy for me. I am also buying a 223 can over a 7.62 because its going on a M16 and thats expensive enough to warrant its own suppressor. For others, doing what you did with a 45 can on a 9mm might be the way to go to get the most flexibility out of it. I guess it just depends what your goals are.

IMBLITZVT said:

I do own a 9mm can but its a SMG suppressor for my Mac. Its really not something for pistols. rsideout is the guy to get with if you are willing to come out to the AGC MG shoots. We have one tomorrow, I don't know if he will be there but he always has a few cans on him. Not trying to volunteer you Rich...

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M, IF I make it to the TCA shoot today, it will be early and probably only for about an hour. We have a busy afternoon and evening today. So I'd be traveling light with MG's, but I guess I could throw 2 HK pistols and cans in the range bag.

Comparing suppressors side by side isn't such an easy task. With a 230gr .45 vs 147gr 9mm as the same speed there is ~2.5x as much recoil energy that the .45 has to dissipate (Matt, surely you're aware of the Chinn MG book.) In nearly identical guns (except caliber) it won't be an apples to apples comparison. A LOT of the difference you may be hearing is the guns noise - both from the action and the gas blowback. Heck even different brands of ammo make a difference depending on the powder burn rate they use. Even the same brand may use a different powder in 9mm than 45. You'd have to handload to know for sure.

I have a Tirant 45 on a Sig 1911 and it is absolutely hearing safe. It sounds different on the Kriss Vector (haven't done back to back to see which one I think appears louder but they definitely sound 'different'.) My only 9mm can is a MK9K which I run on the MP5. Quieter than the .45 but its an ENORMOUS can and the action doesn't seem to make much noise (nothing externally moving and a LONG recoil path.) To differentiate the difference between the bullet noise and action noise, put your hand behind the slide to prevent it from cycling. On my little 22LR Buckmark micro-bull, you can use your thumb to hold the slide and cut the noise easily in half. Now, the whole firearm system is what you'll normally hear so just the bullet noise isn't a complete picture but it MAY be the USP .45 is simply much louder than the 9mm version. A different gun may change that. Adding a urethane bumper to quiet the slide hitting the frame could do a lot, different spring, etc. A pistol designed to run unsuppressed will be stressed somewhat more w/ a can. Plus subsonic 9mm has *SO* much less energy than regular 9mm its really running soft on the action parts whereas the .45 is banging away as normal. You'll never get an apples to apples test.

I bought a $6 pack of Wilson slide bumpers for my 1911 to see what difference in noise it makes but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. (I actually bought them to try one in another gun but they are a 6-pack so why not give one a try in what they were designed for. Though they are a bit on the hard side durometer wise IMO.)

Haven't tried my SDN6 on a .223 yet but I read in many places its almost as quiet as the 223 can. From my experience w/ the high volume MK9K, I believe the SDN6 will likely have a much lower tone and less blowback gas. The latter is fairly obnoxious on a suppressed AR (IMO) so I will likely try to reduce it as much as possible on the M16 since there is going to be a LOT of it But I have both and will be able to do back to back tests to compare once I have it home.

Ran into an EXCELLENT thread on this today w/ real test results. Cant post the pics directly so you'll have to create an account to see them:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=716

But some interesting results:
9mm: USP SD9 vs MP5
* The MP5 is 4db quieter unsuppressed. Same day, same ammo, same suppressor.
* Both suppressed w/ a gemtech multimount they are the same at the standard 1m perpendicular to the muzzle (interesting!) but the MP5A3 is still 3+db quieter at the shooters ear. Particularly interesting since the MP5 is *SO* much closer to your face (even the muzzle.)
* The better can/gun combos seem to be about 125-130dB dry w/ a couple outliers (1m from muzzle)

FWIW, 4db is ~1/3 quieter.

45ACP:
* less data in this table
* HK USP Tactical is 1db quieter than a 1911 5" unsuppressed (same ammo, same day, same suppressor)
* A 1911 on a different day is ~6dB QUIETER! (=sounds 1/2 as loud) (same ammo and can)
* The better combos seem to be around ~130bB @ 1m.

So 9mm does appear to have an edge on average (though there are less 45 suppressors represented. No Tirant for example (but the Osprey is supposed to be very close and it is represented.))

Get both if you're that indecisive.

Osprey 45 and Octane 9mm. The pistons are interchangeable, plus the Octane is user serviceable (good for dirty/cheap 9mm) and has a three lug adapter available, with a possible UZI adapter in the near future. That's what I would buy if I had to do it all over again for pistol caliber suppressors.

I currently have the following.
Osprey 45
Bowers CAC9
Sparrow 22 SS
Specwar 556
Gemtech Quicksand QD
Tactical Innovations TAC16

The Bowers CAC9 is a decent subgun can that came with my Cobray M11. The only one I regret is the Tactical Innovations, not the best sound suppresson and is heavey as sh!t at 24oz. However, it's built like a tank with super tough stainless steel, and take full auto fire on very long strings.