Police Corruption is Connected to Anti Gun Legislation

Overboost44 · Apr 21, 2015

Great stuff Jack. Thank you.

One of your points that stood out to me was that we have to eliminate or minimize the use of phrases such as "shall not infringe" "guns don't kill people, people kill people", "constitutional right to bear arms as in the 2A gives me", and so many more cliches that we hear and use everyday. It is all too common when used in testimony in Annapolis and likely immediately causes everyone to tune out to everything else we are saying.

Instead we need to educate with facts.

Brychan · Apr 22, 2015

I see much of the problem being too many in Annapolis look no further than getting re-elected, watching the GA so many seem to just be putting in the required time they have to be there just amusing themselves, then voting how ever the party wants them to with out any real thought of what the people that elected them really want. If you looked at the amount of e-mails, letters and people that showed up in 2013 to stop OweMallys bill, and then some of the people that voted for it had the balls to say they representing the silent majority that really wanted tighter gun control. They would not increase penalties for actually using a firearm in a crime, claiming not enough prison resources. Can't believe any of those that voted for the FSA 2013 thought it would do anything more than be a pain in the rear of law abiding citizens and not faze criminals in the slightest. They knew and understood it was just favor for O'malley to be on his good side and that of even higher ups in the party.

Brooklyn · Apr 22, 2015

Its called pandering.

No one wants to solve the problem even if they could. Nothing will change until after the fall.

Then it will change..it will not be pretty...we will see if Detroit can make it.. but thats the template.

Violence against unvalued demographics is to be pandered to...nothing more.. but at the rate the contagion is spreading... I gave it 10 years before MD itself is beyond recovery...

We will see if Detroit can rebuild.. that's the template...

w2kbr · Apr 22, 2015

Brooklyn makes good points.

I believe it will be a long Hot summer around these parts.

I suspect the SWHTF in the few 2 weeks of September.....Just a SWAG...
R

fabsroman · Apr 23, 2015

Schipperke said:
Are not the delegates in those areas more 2A friendly? My point is people in Montgomery County do not give Baltimore or its problems even an iota of thought. This is one of the most anti 2A places in Maryland, and again I see no police corruption here as a tie in to it.

Both sides of the General Assembly are population based, unlike the US Congress where each state gets 2 Senators in the US Senate. So, with both houses of the MD General Assembly being population based, and Montgomery County, Prince George's County, and Baltimore City being the 3 most populous counties/city, they generally get what they want. They think that additional gun control will prevent "gun violence" in Baltimore City and PG, so they pass those laws. Thing is, it does nothing.

My view is that better education and economic opportunity for those in Baltimore City and PG would have a much greater long term effect than passing all these silly laws and locking everybody up. Thing is, education and opportunity do not happen overnight and they cost money. Much easier to just lock everybody up, until more prisons are needed, the building of which requires more money.

fabsroman · Apr 23, 2015

lawdog89 said:
Having served with the Montgomery County Police Department for 26 years I am very proud of the people I work with. We have hired many good officers that came from Baltimore City P.D. I am not knocking BCPD but I feel that if the pay and working conditions were better in Baltimore these officers may not have left. Officers there deserve better but probably won't happen.....

How do you get a better police force, a better school system, etc., when there is no money in the city? How exactly is that accomplished? Look at Detroit as an example. The police force there sucked when the city was going through bankruptcy.

Montgomery County is fortunate to be able to feed off of the federal government money flowing out of DC. Hence, it is able to hire a better police force and have a better school system than most other places. Of course, Montgomery County is also on the decline when it comes to median household income. When the median household income and the tax revenue drop, kiss that wonderful police force goodbye. Unless of course, we start to pay for policing out of the Maryland State general fund versus the county funds, and all jurisdictions receive the same amount of money for policing based upon a per capita. Same goes for education. Quite ironic that we provide more funds to those districts that are doing well, because they have met the standards. Well, how the heck are the ones that are not meeting the standards ever going to catch up with less money to pay teachers, etc.?

Brooklyn · Apr 23, 2015

fabsroman said:
Both sides of the General Assembly are population based, unlike the US Congress where each state gets 2 Senators in the US Senate. So, with both houses of the MD General Assembly being population based, and Montgomery County, Prince George's County, and Baltimore City being the 3 most populous counties/city, they generally get what they want. They think that additional gun control will prevent "gun violence" in Baltimore City and PG, so they pass those laws. Thing is, it does nothing.

My view is that better education and economic opportunity for those in Baltimore City and PG would have a much greater long term effect than passing all these silly laws and locking everybody up. Thing is, education and opportunity do not happen overnight and they cost money. Much easier to just lock everybody up, until more prisons are needed, the building of which requires more money.

Sorry thats all BS. The crime rate causes the lack of economic opportunity at this point.
Moreover you don't get a hall pass for violence because you are poor.. Period. This is not shoplifting food so you don't starve. Its violence and disorder for its own sake.

The time such measures as you suggest,if indeed they may ever have worked,is long gone. The jail are full because social order is collapsing, not the converse.

The task now is to restore the rule of law..as a necessary but insufficient condition of any real economic development. The clock ticks.

danb · Apr 23, 2015

Brooklyn said:
Sorry thats all BS. The crime rate causes the lack of economic opportunity at this point.
Moreover you don't get a hall pass for violence because you are poor.. Period. This is not shoplifting food so you don't starve. Its violence and disorder for its own sake.

The time such measures as you suggest,if indeed they may ever have worked,is long gone. The jail are full because social order is collapsing, not the converse.

The task now is to restore the rule of law..as a necessary but insufficient condition of any real economic development. The clock ticks.

No, causality runs the opposite. There are actually some nice neighborhoods in Baltimore (Roland Park, Ten Hills...). When nice neighborhoods expand because people move in, gentrification raises property values and economic opportunity expands. NYC is a pretty good example: gentrification in Brooklyn. Some of the worst areas are now hot spots for development. I could cite lots of examples, including D.C.

Alea Jacta Est · Apr 23, 2015

Bob A said:
I've read the BPD FOP report referenced in the original post.

It is gratifying in the extreme to see that such an effort is being made by Baltimore's Finest; certainly there remains a core of dedicated and talented individuals, upon whose shoulders an improved BPD could be built.

While it's doubtful that political corruption could ever be totally removed from a police organisation, steps can be taken to minimise its toxic effects. The citizens of Baltimore deserve a police department that can serve their needs, and improving the quality and training of personnel would be a big step in that direction. Minimising political interference with the upper ranks of the Department would seem to be another step in a useful direction. The stated purpose of a police organisation must be to protect and serve the citizenry, not merely the political classes.

When the standards are lowered for the express reason of qualifying and promoting a more diverse force, things can and will get worse. When leadership, who promotes accountability and professionalism, is retired, removed or painted into a corner, things can and will get worse.

An honestly informed public, a professional police force and a competent/consistent judicial system would go a long way to making Baltimore a much better place to live and work. In turn, Baltimore's improvement MIGHT presage MD's improvement.

Blaming the guns is a classic. Nothing up my sleeves but my arms... We (MDS community) know well what causes persistent crime. We, for the most part, understand the role of weapons (particularly guns) in violent crime. We, largely, are comprised of folks who are reasonably well informed and who are (mostly) pragmatic/rational human beings. We understand the relationships between violent crime, criminals, weapons/guns, the police and the judicial system... We are not the problem. The choir knows the sermon by heart. They (we) hear it all day long.

OTOH, the low info citizen/voters don't know, don't care and don't want to know. They are placated by blowhard liars selling snake oil and made to feel safe by a judicial system and PD that enables the liberal fairy tale to be the "way, the truth and the light.". I cannot see how ANYTHING you might do, as individuals or collectively, will change the nature of the folks who keep electing crooked, immoral and ineffective politicians.

Maryland gets what Maryland wants.

It's as sure as a LAW OF NATURE. Forget it or deny it at your own risk.

Schipperke · Apr 23, 2015

danb said:
No, causality runs the opposite. There are actually some nice neighborhoods in Baltimore (Roland Park, Ten Hills...). When nice neighborhoods expand because people move in, gentrification raises property values and economic opportunity expands. NYC is a pretty good example: gentrification in Brooklyn. Some of the worst areas are now hot spots for development. I could cite lots of examples, including D.C.

Brooklyn is absolutely correct. Crime causes poverty. I know it is hard for people to wrap their head around that, because thinking the opposite appears intuitive.

danb · Apr 23, 2015

It's not about intuition. Lots of cities have a higher poverty rate than Baltimore. Lot's have cities (or: areas of cities like NYC) have undergone decline and renewal. They don't do it by arresting or incarcerating 1/6 of the population (like O'Malley when he was mayor), they do it with economic development and growth. Randomized studies of relocating people (controversial, I know) show that relocated families are less likely to be involved in crime. Crime causes poverty in the sense that if I get caught and land in jail, my economic opportunities are pretty limited. People coming out of HS are always going to pick the best opportunity they can, even if the best one is pharmaceutical distribution.

Schipperke · Apr 23, 2015

Crime causes poverty. It limits or diminishes others or localities of economic success.

Brooklyn · Apr 23, 2015

danb said:
No, causality runs the opposite. There are actually some nice neighborhoods in Baltimore (Roland Park, Ten Hills...). When nice neighborhoods expand because people move in, gentrification raises property values and economic opportunity expands. NYC is a pretty good example: gentrification in Brooklyn. Some of the worst areas are now hot spots for development. I could cite lots of examples, including D.C.

Try again. Nyc gentrification guted the working class and replaced it with folks priced out of Manhattan by rich out of Towners who don't not even live there year round.

Meanwhile everyone else is pushed out. That's not economic development... Its turning working cities into malls.

Meanwhile the cost of working and doing business in the city escalates.. And the contagion spreads..

Learn the hard way.

Cities fail when they become malls.

And as baltimore gentrifies Baltimore county will become the new Baltimore.

The clock ticks.

Brooklyn · Apr 23, 2015

danb said:
It's not about intuition. Lots of cities have a higher poverty rate than Baltimore. Lot's have cities (or: areas of cities like NYC) have undergone decline and renewal. They don't do it by arresting or incarcerating 1/6 of the population (like O'Malley when he was mayor), they do it with economic development and growth. Randomized studies of relocating people (controversial, I know) show that relocated families are less likely to be involved in crime. Crime causes poverty in the sense that if I get caught and land in jail, my economic opportunities are pretty limited. People coming out of HS are always going to pick the best opportunity they can, even if the best one is pharmaceutical distribution.

Crap. Nyc restored the rule of law first. Only then did it rebound.. That's the other template.

I lived it.

esqappellate · Apr 23, 2015

Brooklyn said:
Crap. Nyc restored the rule of law first. Only then did it rebound.. That's the other template.

I lived it.

I think that is correct as a matter of a chronology. NYPD instituted what is often called "Broken Window Policing" which means, in a nutshell, that they controlled violent crime by controlling disorderly behavior (NYC's infamous window washers at intersections) with aggressive policing, viz., the theory is that "disorder leads to increased fear and withdrawal from residents, which then allows more serious crime to move in because of decreased levels of informal social control." http://cebcp.org/evidence-based-pol...arch-evidence-review/broken-windows-policing/ See especially the link to Do Police Matter? An Analysis of the Impact of New York City’s Police Reforms

As part of that policy, they also instituted a broad policy of conducting borderline unconstitutional Terry stops for weapons in high crime areas and tourist areas (Times Sq). That policy, coupled with mandatory jail time, made carrying weapons a higher risk proposition for perps. That reduced violent crime by bad guys on the street. (They are more likely to keep the illegal guns at home). These Terry stops also created a lot of resentment in the minority communities where it was principally practiced, a sentiment that you see manifested in the major of NYC now, who put a stop to it and otherwise undermined police morale. So there are a complex web of tradeoffs. We will see what happens now.

Just a nit, FWIW. "Rule of law" means that the law applies to sovereign as well as the peons.

Schipperke · Apr 23, 2015

esqappellate said:
Just a nit, FWIW. "Rule of law" means that the law applies to sovereign as well as the peons.

That is why congress is sure to note it does not apply to them, right in the law.

esqappellate · Apr 23, 2015

danb said:
It's not about intuition. Lots of cities have a higher poverty rate than Baltimore. Lot's have cities (or: areas of cities like NYC) have undergone decline and renewal. They don't do it by arresting or incarcerating 1/6 of the population (like O'Malley when he was mayor), they do it with economic development and growth. Randomized studies of relocating people (controversial, I know) show that relocated families are less likely to be involved in crime. Crime causes poverty in the sense that if I get caught and land in jail, my economic opportunities are pretty limited. People coming out of HS are always going to pick the best opportunity they can, even if the best one is pharmaceutical distribution.

Here is the crux: "Since the 1972 research of Marvin Wolfgang and his colleagues, it has been widely understood that a small number of those who commit criminal offenses, commit an unusually high number of offenses. * * * . Kennedy, working with colleagues from the Boston Police Department, made a parallel discovery when he found that murderers and their victims had virtually identical backgrounds. They had extensive criminal records, were on probation or parole, had warrants out for their arrest for serious crimes, had charges pending, were out on bail—in other words, they were serious violent repeat offenders, most of whom were currently active in the criminal justice system when they either murdered someone or were murdered. The policy implications of this were, of course, that if criminal justice agencies were to coordinate their activities regarding these offenders, they had tremendous leverage over them—hence the term “pulling levers.”

From footnote 8, of Do Police Matter? An Analysis of the Impact of New York City’s Police Reforms. Dec. 2001.

esqappellate · Apr 23, 2015

Schipperke said:
That is why congress is sure to note it does not apply to them, right in the law.

Surely you are not suggesting that our elected representatives are hypocritical or seek special privileges for themselves? The response to that is an enraged electorate. For example, when Congress exempted itself from the Civil Rights Laws, public outrage finally prompted them to enact legislation that created a separate enforcement administrative scheme for the enforcement of those laws against members of Congress. See Congressional Accountability Act of 1995, 2 U.S.C.A. § 1302

Jimet · Apr 23, 2015

"When the standards are lowered for the express reason of qualifying and promoting a more diverse force, things can and will get worse. When leadership, who promotes accountability and professionalism, is retired, removed or painted into a corner, things can and will get worse".

The Peter Principle. People do a good job, they get promoted, on and on until they are incompetent to do the job they have been promoted to.

Z_Man · Apr 23, 2015

esqappellate said:
I think that is correct as a matter of a chronology. NYPD instituted what is often called "Broken Window Policing" which means, in a nutshell, that they controlled violent crime by controlling disorderly behavior (NYC's infamous window washers at intersections) with aggressive policing, viz., the theory is that "disorder leads to increased fear and withdrawal from residents, which then allows more serious crime to move in because of decreased levels of informal social control." http://cebcp.org/evidence-based-pol...arch-evidence-review/broken-windows-policing/ See especially the link to Do Police Matter? An Analysis of the Impact of New York City’s Police Reforms

As part of that policy, they also instituted a broad policy of conducting borderline unconstitutional Terry stops for weapons in high crime areas and tourist areas (Times Sq). That policy, coupled with mandatory jail time, made carrying weapons a higher risk proposition for perps. That reduced violent crime by bad guys on the street. (They are more likely to keep the illegal guns at home). These Terry stops also created a lot of resentment in the minority communities where it was principally practiced, a sentiment that you see manifested in the major of NYC now, who put a stop to it and otherwise undermined police morale. So there are a complex web of tradeoffs. We will see what happens now.

Just a nit, FWIW. "Rule of law" means that the law applies to sovereign as well as the peons.

jaywalking, loitering and littering enforcement would do a lot to make a place feel less dumpy

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