HPBR vs Self Defense as G&S

Muleskinner · Aug 27, 2015

I'm seeing a pattern emerge from the HPBR where those who can logically and cohesively put together an argument for self defense are having their denials overturned. SO I pose this question....

If the HPBR has the power to use self defense as G&S, why does the AG say that Hogan does not have the authority to order his MSP superintendent to allow self defense as G&S? It's essentially the same thing...

I see a time in the not to distant future where Brian Frosh gets wind of what the HPBR is doing and find a way to shut them down...When/if this happens I hope someone has the sack to file suit...

LoneRanger · Aug 27, 2015

Muleskinner said:
I'm seeing a pattern emerge from the HPBR where those who can logically and cohesively put together an argument for self defense are having their denials overturned. SO I pose this question....

If the HPBR has the power to use self defense as G&S, why does the AG say that Hogan does not have the authority to order his MSP superintendent to allow self defense as G&S? It's essentially the same thing...

I see a time in the not to distant future where Brian Frosh gets wind of what the HPBR is doing and find a way to shut them down...When/if this happens I hope someone has the sack to file suit...

On what are you basing your observation that the HPBR is routinely accepting self defense as G&S?

I agree with you 100% that the ruling political class is keeping an eye on this and are not going to let it happen. There will be another round of gun control legislation, it will be much more onerous than we have now, a Hogan veto is no slam dunk and the powers that be are not much bothered by lawsuits.....

Muleskinner · Aug 27, 2015

LoneRanger said:
On what are you basing your observation that the HPBR is routinely accepting self defense as G&S?

I agree with you 100% that the ruling political class is keeping an eye on this and are not going to let it happen. There will be another round of gun control legislation, it will be much more onerous than we have now, a Hogan veto is no slam dunk and the powers that be are not much bothered by lawsuits.....

Just reading the notes taken from those that attend the meetings. It appears to me that at least a couple of the few that have had their denials overturned have been basically for self defense. I know it's only a few right now, but there have only been a couple of meetings with the "new" board...and from other things I have read here it's giving others an optimistic view that they could do the same...Where I wish them all the best of luck and hope the trend continues I think these are hollow victories. Frosh is likely to attempt to overturn the rulings of the board, or at the very least point out to them that self defense cannot be used to issue a permit...and even if that doesn't happen when these permits come up for renewal it's a good bet that MSP will deny renewals forcing the permit owners to jump back through the HPBR hoops again..and of course if the next governor is a liberal (which will probably be the case) the members of that board will be changed back to anti gunners..

jcutonilli · Aug 27, 2015

Muleskinner said:
I'm seeing a pattern emerge from the HPBR where those who can logically and cohesively put together an argument for self defense are having their denials overturned. SO I pose this question....

If the HPBR has the power to use self defense as G&S, why does the AG say that Hogan does not have the authority to order his MSP superintendent to allow self defense as G&S? It's essentially the same thing...

I see a time in the not to distant future where Brian Frosh gets wind of what the HPBR is doing and find a way to shut them down...When/if this happens I hope someone has the sack to file suit...

It is not the same thing. The legislature has given the power to determine G&S to HPBR. The legislature has not given that power to Hogan.

The problem with using self defense goes back to Heller. They used English common law to define to right, which only applies inside the home. The king was to afraid to allow it outside the home because they might overthrow him (not that that would ever happen in 1776). The lawsuits to date have failed to understand this and the courts have rejected the challenges because they failed to present a reasonable argument why it exists outside the home.

I would have argued the public safety approach. ie the security of a free state and the citizens arrest angle and no actual police in 1776 to justify why the people have the right to participate in public safety. If you look a pretty much every opposing 2A case public safety is the G&S reason given by the court to justify their decisions.

dblas · Aug 27, 2015

Muleskinner said:
I'm seeing a pattern emerge from the HPBR where those who can logically and cohesively put together an argument for self defense are having their denials overturned. SO I pose this question....

If the HPBR has the power to use self defense as G&S, why does the AG say that Hogan does not have the authority to order his MSP superintendent to allow self defense as G&S?[/b/ It's essentially the same thing...

I see a time in the not to distant future where Brian Frosh gets wind of what the HPBR is doing and find a way to shut them down...When/if this happens I hope someone has the sack to file suit...

Self defense is already G&S per MSPs web page, they call it personal protection. What the HPRB is overturning, is the over reach of authority, by MSP Licensing Division, as granted to them via state statute and COMAR. With that said, is it possible that Frosh could come up with a way to advocate for an Executive Branch agency over reaching the authority granted to it by the Legislative Branch? Maybe. Would he? I don't think so, because then that opens a whole new can of worms for other Executive Branch Agencies to overstep the authority granted by the Legislative Branch. That could get all kinds of messy.

dblas · Aug 27, 2015

LoneRanger said:
On what are you basing your observation that the HPBR is routinely accepting self defense as G&S?

I agree with you 100% that the ruling political class is keeping an eye on this and are not going to let it happen. There will be another round of gun control legislation, it will be much more onerous than we have now, a Hogan veto is no slam dunk and the powers that be are not much bothered by lawsuits.....

While yes, there may be another round of gun control legislation in Maryland, I doubt that any will pass, with the legislature knowing that the Governor will in all likely hood veto it, and both bodies not having a veto proof majority vote to pass it.

Jaybeez · Aug 27, 2015

Muleskinner said:
If the HPBR has the power to use self defense as G&S, why does the AG say that Hogan does not have the authority to order his MSP superintendent to allow self defense as G&S? It's essentially the same thing...

The HPRB is empowered by the law to do what they are doing. its as simple as that.

what you want the governor to do, wrt the secretary, is precluded by the legislative history and debate on the original bill in 1972. i dont agreee with that, but thats whats in writing at the moment, and there is no way to upset that at this juncture.

As far as the AG goes, the only thing he can do is take the board to court. Nobody would need to have a sack as you suggest. i doubt the AG wants to roll the dice in court again, especially if it would likely be a loss for him, and carve the new process into case law stone.

LoneRanger · Aug 27, 2015

dblas said:
While yes, there may be another round of gun control legislation in Maryland, I doubt that any will pass, with the legislature knowing that the Governor will in all likely hood veto it, and both bodies not having a veto proof majority vote to pass it.

Why are you so sure Hogan would in all likely hood veto any new gun legislation?

Guns are one of the few bargaining chips he has to get the MGA to work with him on fulfilling many of the campaign promises he made to the masses. Push come to shove, I see him using that chip without blinking an eye.

Like it or not, there is some liberalism running through his veins. His roots are PG county, his father was a career politician from PG county.......you can't be a career politician from that area without some liberalism in the blood line.

The -R- next to his name on a ballot doesn't mean all that much.....

Jaybeez · Aug 27, 2015

LoneRanger said:
Why are you so sure Hogan would in all likely hood veto any new gun legislation?

Guns are one of the few bargaining chips he has to get the MGA to work with him on fulfilling many of the campaign promises he made to the masses. Push come to shove, I see him using that chip without blinking an eye.

Like it or not, there is some liberalism running through his veins. His roots are PG county, his father was a career politician from PG county.......you can't be a career politician from that area without some liberalism in the blood line.

The -R- next to his name on a ballot doesn't mean all that much.....

the governor writes the budget. the ga can only approve it. thats the biggest bargaining chip in the state, choosing where the money goes.

LoneRanger · Aug 27, 2015

Jaybeez said:
the governor writes the budget. the ga can only approve it. thats the biggest bargaining chip in the state, choosing where the money goes.

Not really. The GA can do exactly what they did this past session....allocate or over allocate funds for things the governor is not much interested in and refuse or under fund things he really is interested in.

He still has to cooperate with Mike & Mike if he hopes to accomplish half of what he promised....last session did not exactly end on a happy note.....I doubt the next session will be any better.

Muleskinner · Aug 27, 2015

I am considering applying. While I know it has no bearing in Md, I did have a permit from SC back in the 90s when I lived there, I am self employed, routinely enter into sketchy neighborhoods to work and carry tens of thousands of dollars in spare parts and tools and I work anytime day or night. Beyond what is written in the guide on how to apply, are their people who help write cohesive verbage that would convince either MSP or the HPBR board that an individual should be allowed a CC permit?

I really hate to beg for my rights, but as I have said, I think when renewal time comes and MSP again denies, I want to have the option to sue the state under the 14th amendments equality clause if they refuse to renew. That would potentially eliminate the rulings from previous suits since they were based on the 2nd amendment.

Stoveman · Aug 27, 2015

Muleskinner said:
I am considering applying. While I know it has no bearing in Md, I did have a permit from SC back in the 90s when I lived there, I am self employed, routinely enter into sketchy neighborhoods to work and carry tens of thousands of dollars in spare parts and tools and I work anytime day or night. Beyond what is written in the guide on how to apply, are their people who help write cohesive verbage that would convince either MSP or the HPBR board that an individual should be allowed a CC permit?

I really hate to beg for my rights, but as I have said, I think when renewal time comes and MSP again denies, I want to have the option to sue the state under the 14th amendments equality clause if they refuse to renew. That would potentially eliminate the rulings from previous suits since they were based on the 2nd amendment.

If you are legitimately a business owner and can prove it (articles of incorporation, licenses, bank statements) and are not prohibited you will be able to get a permit and I encourage you to apply.

Plenty of information in the how to apply for MD thread at the top of the page.

montoya32 · Aug 27, 2015

The HPRB is merely following the law as it is currently written. For years, the MSP was NOT. They were creating law on the fly and going well beyond the letter of the law.

What is happening is long overdue. Do not by any stretch of the imagination think that a simple "self-defense" will work at this point. You still have to substantiate it with something, anything. Why are you in fear? Why do you feel as though you need to protect yourself? I'm not saying it is right or perfect, yet, but it is what it is and we have a path which we can follow now.

Hawkeye · Aug 28, 2015

montoya32 said:
The HPRB is merely following the law as it is currently written. For years, the MSP was NOT. They were creating law on the fly and going well beyond the letter of the law.

This is the absolute key thing when it comes to the efforts with the HPRB.

For ever and a day the MSP Licensing Division basically got away with doing whatever the hell they wanted when it came to permits - no self defense, we pick and choose who gets them, etc. The HPRB was designed to be oversight to the MSP LD, but in reality it served as a rubber stamp for the MSP LD's decisions.

What enabled this process was the lack of transparency and the ability to just quietly sweep everything under the rug when it came to the HPRB - witness the fact that there were no minutes of any meetings, no allowed public attendance, the votes were taken in secret, etc. They got away with it because no one was watching and the people on the HPRB were basically drones of the organization.

With the new appointees to the board and the efforts of the people who have been attending the meeting and holding their feet to the fire so that they actually follow the law things are changing in a positive way. Meetings are more public now. There are minutes kept (so that members can be held responsible for what goes on), votes are being made public, etc. These are all positive steps because they are going to make the HPRB follow the law.

Once they're following the law, we just need to get them to follow the right law. We all know the old Snowden & Scherr argument, but those are now no longer the applicable pieces of case law. If / when Gryphon and other folks can get in front of them for a hearing and argue that they ought to be applying Wollard (and applying it properly) then we will have another victory because they won't be able to deny self defense permits any more.

The awesome thing about that is that the HPRB is an independent body - they don't report to MSP, so the LD can't order them to do things differently. They don't report to Frosh, so he can't order them to do things differently. The only way to get rid of them is to either pass new legislation or appoint new members.

fidelity · Aug 28, 2015

Muleskinner said:
I am considering applying. While I know it has no bearing in Md, I did have a permit from SC back in the 90s when I lived there, I am self employed, routinely enter into sketchy neighborhoods to work and carry tens of thousands of dollars in spare parts and tools and I work anytime day or night. Beyond what is written in the guide on how to apply, are their people who help write cohesive verbage that would convince either MSP or the HPBR board that an individual should be allowed a CC permit?

I really hate to beg for my rights, but as I have said, I think when renewal time comes and MSP again denies, I want to have the option to sue the state under the 14th amendments equality clause if they refuse to renew. That would potentially eliminate the rulings from previous suits since they were based on the 2nd amendment.

Even in the past you might have gotten a permit based on being self-employed, esp if depositing monies received from clients during business. However this permit would have had restrictions on where and when you can carry. What is also happening now is that through the HPBR permit holders are seeking to have restrictions removed or lessened.

ShafTed · Aug 28, 2015

Muleskinner said:
If the HPBR has the power to use self defense as G&S, why does the AG say that Hogan does not have the authority to order his MSP superintendent to allow self defense as G&S? It's essentially the same thing...
.

As I see it, the statement of the AAG is a very carefully worded lawyer opinion. Technically the Gov. can't "order" the Super to do anything, except that if the Gov. disagrees he can "fire" the super & appoint somebody else. Per the black & white letter of the law, the ONLY person who gets to define G&S is the Super (not the Gov, not the AG), and as I see it Pallozzi COULD make that definition Self Defense at any time if he should choose to. The GA has already granted him that authority by the way they wrote the law. He (Pallozzi) is choosing to play politics by hiding behind the AAG's opinion.

My opinion is worth less than 3% of $0.02.

robmints · Aug 29, 2015

LoneRanger said:
On what are you basing your observation that the HPBR is routinely accepting self defense as G&S?

I wouldn't say anything is routine. It looked like they are walking the fine line between the letter and sprit of the MD law and the "whistling a tune or singing bars". The people who got their permits were military (or former?) and used terrorism as their palpable threat. Sooo not using sd as g&s, but if possible, granting if a palpable need is whistled. Will they expand to non-military? Who knows.

mxrider · Aug 30, 2015

I'm wanting to see a case that cites the crime stats in the state as palpable need. If I can get my training complete, that will be part of my g&s

HPBR vs Self Defense as G&S

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