Legal Beagles assemble! Legal to sbr a pre 1899 rifle?

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

I have a 1889 schmidt rubin that belonged to my grandfather. The gun was horribly bubbaed in the 50s and fires the 7.5 paper patched rounds which means I have to load my own.

I'm going to fix all of the bubba work to a professional standard but the BIG problem is the sporterized barrel sat in water muzzle down at some point in a basement. The first 6" of barrel and the front sight is corroded beyond belief. In order to salvage the barrel it would have to be cut righ at the 16" mark and I mean right at 16". There's no 16.25" cut here, it would be on the legal line if cut. The gun was bubbaed really bad and has some holes in the receiver I'm going to plug and weld and the stock was whacked up for some bubba side mount and its bad. The gun is in sound condition and the bore is pristine besides the 6" of damage.

If this isn't legal my next approach would be to install a permanent brake of some type to get me to 16"

What say ye legal beagles? Legal? I'm out of my realm when it comes to stuff like this.

The gun was my grandfathers first gun and he killed his first and only deer with it. I want to at least do it the honor of making it shoot again. Its been in my closet for 20 years and its time for me to save it.

Boom Boom · Jul 14, 2014

Antique rifles that accept cartridge ammo are subject to NFA.

Permanent flash suppressor or brake seems like the best approach.

smokey · Jul 14, 2014

Is swapping barrels out of the question? It would sure be legally safer to buy another with a solid bore and swap parts.

obsolete · Jul 14, 2014

Any chance of a 1/4 inch recessed crown? Or maybe a combo recessed crown/threaded barrel/perm attached thread cover? I know that's a lot of work, but I also know how good you are or I wouldn't even mention it.

armed ferret · Jul 14, 2014

write to ATF and ask for clarification.

MacGuns · Jul 14, 2014

You could also go with a surplus K31 sniper muzzle break.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/sniper/

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

Boom Boom said:
Antique rifles that accept cartridge ammo are subject to NFA.

Permanent flash suppressor or brake seems like the best approach.

Thanks. Looks like a permanent muzzle device is the answer. Staying legal is important for me.

smokey0118 said:
Is swapping barrels out of the question? It would sure be legally safer to buy another with a solid bore and swap parts.

You and I think alike. I may try this if I can get a replacement. My only fear is they don't time the same way which means the shoulder would have to be turned back and I would have to get a reamer for this oddball.

obsolete said:
Any chance of a 1/4 inch recessed crown? Or maybe a combo recessed crown/threaded barrel/perm attached thread cover? I know that's a lot of work, but I also know how good you are or I wouldn't even mention it.

This is also something I was considering and I haven't ruled it out.

armed ferret said:
write to ATF and ask for clarification.

You silly goose. I'm going to write you a letter.

MacMoov said:
You could also go with a surplus K31 sniper muzzle break.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/sniper/

Oh my! That's hawt!

BradMacc82 · Jul 14, 2014

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the 1889 Schmidt-Rubin's barrels about 30"?

If only 6" of barrel is trashed, then you should have plenty to work with.

If I'm wrong, there's also this available - http://www.schludershots.com/schmidt-rubin-1889-barrel-22-5.html - 22.5", so you'd still be legal.

Your welcome Chad.

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

The barrel was chopped in the 50s. Its about 22" now. I have been eyeing that barrel you linked too.

I'm dreading having to get a single stage press and dies for this too. I have never reloaded and it scares the shat out of me. I have seen so much damage from reloads that its made me scared of it. On top of it all I hear this round is a pain in the ass to load for due to the long throat and blowback from not using paper patched rounds.

I guess if it comes to it I'm gonna put a yhm q.d. Mount and mount my can. I planned on maaking all my loads sub rounds anyway as this particular gun isn't safe with full power loads.

Doctor_M · Jul 14, 2014

I wish you luck! (I know that you have talent, so luck is probably not needed). I always respect someone trying to breath life into an old gun (especially one with sentimental value).

May the force be with you!

BradMacc82 · Jul 14, 2014

Reloading is only as dangerous as you allow it to be.

Wouldn't be surprised if Wes knew how to pull commercial 7.5 apart to reseat the bullet after paper-patching them??

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

I'm gonna have to slug the barrel and do a chamber cast and see what I'm working with. I need to find some 7.5 brass to start my journey.

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

Going to the Wes dungeon of love is giving me ptsd.

BradMacc82 · Jul 14, 2014

You can use 7.5 commercial cases, but they need to be trimmed even more than standard 7.5 - 7.5x53.5mm, so lose 2mm for the 1889, IIRC.

You can also form the 7.5 from .284 Winchester, provided the extractor is in good shape since the rim is slightly undersized compared to 7.5 Swiss.

I can see what I can dig up, highly doubt there's any reliable ammo available that's been patched - and isn't highly corrosive.

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

I figured they projectiles would just have to be seated out further to reduce the blowback but that's where testing comes into play. The extractor dosent grab siper tight on 7.5 so the alternate brass may now work.

The ejector was rounded bad so I got a replacement. I think I'm gonna order a spare bolt for future parts needs. I will shoot this thing.

BradMacc82 · Jul 14, 2014

Hmm, if someone casts bullets, could probably get them to cast them slightly underbore and still be able to patch them before seating them.

Definitely an interesting round, IMO.

AssMan · Jul 14, 2014

There's nothing on loaddata.com, unfortunately. Most folks on the Swiss Rifle forum are using modified 30-40 Krag loads as a starting point I believe.

IMBLITZVT · Jul 14, 2014

Seems to me that the Russians were famous for counter boring rifles. Basically drilling the barrel back by 1/4" or more so they did not have to screw with anything else. Seems to me you could do that for a little bit to give you wiggle room to make sure you are +16"s.

Remember to reload the rounds powerful enough to get them out of a the barrel. Otherwise its a squib which can be dangerous.

Have you thought about rebarreling into another caliber? Something close as far as power so you don't overload the receiver. Or maybe just a weaker but more common round that would still work with the bolt head and extractor? I don't know if there is a round but its my first thoughts...

clandestine · Jul 14, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Seems to me that the Russians were famous for counter boring rifles. Basically drilling the barrel back by 1/4" or more so they did not have to screw with anything else. Seems to me you could do that for a little bit to give you wiggle room to make sure you are +16"s.

Remember to reload the rounds powerful enough to get them out of a the barrel. Otherwise its a squib which can be dangerous.

Have you thought about rebarreling into another caliber? Something close as far as power so you don't overload the receiver. Or maybe just a weaker but more common round that would still work with the bolt head and extractor? I don't know if there is a round but its my first thoughts...

I may do that with the barrel and its good advice.

The sub loads will take some time to work up I'm sure. Ill start with krag load data and work my way back testing with a chronograph.

The caliber idea is a sound one. These were rechambered in .308 and .30-30
The 308 would certainly have to be downloaded as the pressure will certainly blow the bolt on this gun. The 30-30 would be the ticket but I would need to do a good bit of mods to the bolt and magazine to make them feed. Same goes for 308. The feed geometry, breach face, and magazine just does not like those rounds. When they were done they turned the barrels back and rechambered them. Ill loose about 1/4" of barrel by setting it back as well.

I'm definately capible to make the changes but I'm hesitant as the parts are not abundant.

I appreciate the help with the ideas.

IMBLITZVT · Jul 14, 2014

clandestine said:
The 308 would certainly have to be downloaded as the pressure will certainly blow the bolt on this gun. The 30-30 would be the ticket but I would need to do a good bit of mods to the bolt and magazine to make them feed. Same goes for 308. The feed geometry, breach face, and magazine just does not like those rounds. When they were done they turned the barrels back and rechambered them. Ill loose about 1/4" of barrel by setting it back as well.

If it were me, I would not chamber a gun in a new caliber that was not safe given standard spec, someone buys it off the self and drops the round in the chamber, type round. So I would go with a 30-30 or keep in original caliber if it were me.

I tend not to like SBRs. That said, why not just get a 30-30 barrel blank and rechamber it and turn it back into a useful rifle. What are you going to do with a full size cartridge gun with a 16+" barrel? Not much. Goes from a wall hanger to a safe queen. If you chambered it in 30-30, that changes everything and its now a useful little rifle with a full size barrel and you can buy ammo off the shelf.

I am smart enough to know when to know not to do something. I have been avoiding loading for full size rifle rounds for this reason if none other. I have had no one to teach me how to reload. Now that I have done 10k rounds of 45ACP and 45LC, I feel like I learned enough to step up to full size rifle rounds. However some of the things people do is just scary! I would not want to start with a full size rifle round. Also reloading setups are pretty expensive if you do it right. Its a lot of money for a round you will never use again and loading light rounds for a gun you will rarely fire... I am guessing.

I would rather put the work in the front end and make a nice 30-30 out of it, than spend work every time to reload for it. Its historic value is already dead, so if it was me.... 30-30 it would be.

Just my thoughts...

Sometimes you wish you Grandparents just sold them rather then passed them down. I have a 48AL Franchi 12 Gauge that likes to go off when the bolt is closed. I can get a stronger firing pin spring but I can't get a factory one. Its just not something I am going to hand to someone else to use and I have a better gun for myself... and its my Grandad's gun, so I can't really sell it...

Legal Beagles assemble! Legal to sbr a pre 1899 rifle?

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