You definitely need 16 hrs of training!

danb · Apr 24, 2015

Or, not.

Thought this was interesting to pass along:

Can You Shoot Better Than A Cop?
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/

At three to 15 feet, where most officer fatalities occur, Expert shooters hit one of the major-damage zones on the target "with eight out of nine bullets they fired," the researchers found, while Novices hit "with seven of the nine bullets they fired"--a scant advantage for the trained recruits of just a single round.

Kelson1066 · Apr 24, 2015

Simple answer as with all things it depends on if you train for it.

I shoot better than some cops I know (they don't practice)
I also shoot worse than some cops I know (one of them is a competitive distance shooter)

Alan3413 · Apr 24, 2015

Was the experiment done under stress?

esqappellate · Apr 24, 2015

danb said:
Or, not.

Thought this was interesting to pass along:

Can You Shoot Better Than A Cop?
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/

Forget that comparison (shooting at paper on a range with no stress), since it wholly unrealistic. Take any scenario from the NRA's "Defensive Pistol Course" and see how folks do on it. My favorite: Draw from concealment on an empty chamber (with a full mag), chamber and fire 3 rounds at center mass, 7 yards (and not miss), swap mags, and fire 4 more rounds at center mass (and not miss). All in 8 seconds or less, measured from the signal to start to the last shot. No novice can do it. My guess (and it is only that) is that most cops can't do it.

lx1x · Apr 24, 2015

Depends on what is novice to you. No gun experience at all vs just like to shoot bullseye often?

jimbobborg · Apr 24, 2015

The NRA's "Defensive Pistol Course" scenario you put would be hard for anyone who hasn't practiced drawing, much less from concealment.

esqappellate · Apr 24, 2015

lx1x said:
Depends on what is novice to you. No gun experience at all vs just like to shoot bullseye often?

On this NRA scenario, both would be novices, as neither would have prior training or experience in drawing, much less from concealment, much less on an empty chamber ("Israeli draw"), much less shooting for self-defense (rapid sight picture acquisition, rapid aimed fire, center mass shooting). Doing all this in 8 seconds is only possible if it is all muscle memory. Drawing is the single most dangerous thing in this scenario. Prior formal training is mandated by the NRA. All the instructors I know require prior completion of Basic Pistol, PPITH and PPOTH and personal comfort by the instructor that you know what you are doing. I don't think that many cops are tested in this manner either, but they should be IMHO.

HeatSeeker · Apr 24, 2015

Alan3413 said:
Was the experiment done under stress?

^^This is what I am wondering also.

A person that has never shot a gun before could probably hit 7/9 out of 9 standing still at 3'.

abean4187 · Apr 24, 2015

Anyone can go to a range and put lead through paper. The training is supposed to cover stressful and legal situations that you could face while carrying.

Chris · Apr 24, 2015

abean4187 said:
Anyone can go to a range and put lead through paper. The training is supposed to cover stressful and legal situations that you could face while carrying.

I did some training with CMCT here on the Forum. We would run up a hill then down to the firing line this was to mimic stress of a real threat situation. Your are out of breath, heart pumping and with your hand shaking you put those rounds on target. It's an eye opener if you have never done that type of training do it. You will understand, for the most part, what an adrenaline rush would be like in armed confrontation. Chris

esqappellate · Apr 24, 2015

Chris said:
I did some training with CMCT here on the Forum. We would run up a hill then down to the firing line this was to mimic stress of a real threat situation. Your are out of breath, heart pumping and with your hand shaking you put those rounds on target. It's an eye opener if you have never done that type of training do it. You will understand, for the most part, what an adrenaline rush would be like in armed confrontation. Chris

Maybe because I am an instructor, I really believe in formal training. Not as a legal requirement, but as just a really good idea. You fight how you train. If you don't train, you cannot fight as well.

lx1x · Apr 24, 2015

esqappellate said:
On this NRA scenario, both would be novices, as neither would have prior training or experience in drawing, much less from concealment, much less on an empty chamber ("Israeli draw"), much less shooting for self-defense (rapid sight picture acquisition, rapid aimed fire, center mass shooting). Doing all this in 8 seconds is only possible if it is all muscle memory. Drawing is the single most dangerous thing in this scenario. Prior formal training is mandated by the NRA. All the instructors I know require prior completion of Basic Pistol, PPITH and PPOTH and personal comfort by the instructor that you know what you are doing. I don't think that many cops are tested in this manner either, but they should be IMHO.

It's more of intermediate class... Pith or poth teaches the basic draw technique.

Reason I shoot idpa and uspsa.. Kinda sorta an extension of training and practice..

For somebody that knows what they are doing.. 8 sec is plenty of time..

obsolete · Apr 24, 2015

I have often thought that all of the Academy and In Service training directed at police does the individual officer a great disservice. Officers are subjected to a great many scenarios depicting a person pointing a gun at them. They are directed to shoot and chastised when they don't.

The truth is that in 25 years on the street.....real, honest years in patrol in a community of over a million, I've had a gun pointed at me or in my direction several times. I never fired my weapon......in the end, they all turned out to be frightened home owners awakened by an alarm or other suspicious noises. None had the presence of mind to anticipate that the next person they would see would be a police officer responding to their call for assistance or alarm.

The trick to being the police isn't getting the first shot off.....it isn't being the most accurate shot.....it's having the courage not to shoot and then to calmly deescalate the situation.

The academy guys hate it when I bring this up. I would be doing a disservice to my guys if I didn't remind them that the most likely thing to happen today is nothing at all.

danb · Apr 24, 2015

abean4187 said:
Anyone can go to a range and put lead through paper. The training is supposed to cover stressful and legal situations that you could face while carrying.

I have seen some pretty bad shooting at On Target.

501st · Apr 24, 2015

obsolete said:
I have often thought that all of the Academy and In Service training directed at police does the individual officer a great disservice. Officers are subjected to a great many scenarios depicting a person pointing a gun at them. They are directed to shoot and chastised when they don't.

The truth is that in 25 years on the street.....real, honest years in patrol in a community of over a million, I've had a gun pointed at me or in my direction several times. I never fired my weapon......in the end, they all turned out to be frightened home owners awakened by an alarm or other suspicious noises. None had the presence of mind to anticipate that the next person they would see would be a police officer responding to their call for assistance or alarm.

The trick to being the police isn't getting the first shot off.....it isn't being the most accurate shot.....it's having the courage not to shoot and then to calmly deescalate the situation.

The academy guys hate it when I bring this up. I would be doing a disservice to my guys if I didn't remind them that the most likely thing to happen today is nothing at all.

Which is why simulator training like should be used by both law enforcement and people who want to protect themselves with firearms.

Schipperke · Apr 24, 2015

danb said:
I have seen some pretty bad shooting at On Target.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 25, 2015

Well this one is actually more seperate topics than I can count :

1. Level of average LE shooting competency in the absolute sense.

2. Comparitive competency levels of LE vs Joe Public.

3. Minimum/ basic/ advanced levels of skills suitable for pick one of : average , typical , or virtually any defensive situation. All in the abstract.

4 weather the skill level discussed in #3 has or should have any relevence to the groups discussed in #1 andd #2 .

5. Weather specific hours of training , or specific performance criteria , or specific instruction , etc should be or could be mandated for any of above groups or combinations of groups.

And probably a bunch more.

But as a general statement , I have strong feelings about the skills that wise ( and physically able ) perople should ideally have. I also have strong feelings about the difference of Fundamental Rights vs Privledeges.

But I realize they are different , and don't belong in the same conversation.

Ps - I can see the above referenced shooting exercise as being *Interesting* , but carrying a pistol *for real* unloaded is inherently neglegent ( unless some really wierd unconventional carry mode requires it ).

Pinecone · Apr 25, 2015

When I shot USPSA on a regular basis, I shot with many LEOs. Some were VERY good, some were scary bad.

Competition, IMO, is a good thing, as it adds a level of stress. Not the same as life or death on the street, but still gets the heart pumping and the pulse racing.

Most training scenarios are not as stressful. And stress shooting it what makes the difference.

Local LEOs tended to be not so great. The FBI HRT guys were mostly QUITE good. The others, somewhere in between.

And I have seen a few VERY scary civilian shooters. As in not being able to hit a torso sized target at 5 yards. As in NO HITS.

danb · Apr 25, 2015

Schipperke said:

This went over my head.

pilotguy299 · Apr 25, 2015

501st said:
Which is why simulator training like should be used by both law enforcement and people who want to protect themselves with firearms.

Simulator training is a good idea, and should be done regularly. But I really believe that training using things like airsoft or simmunitions can provide a better training experience.

A shooting incident is a much more dynamic event, than shooting at a static target. Too much time is spent on shooting at fixed paper targets and trying for the perfect score.

There were a lot of "target shooters" where I worked, who could shoot 300's all day long. Put them behind an airsoft gun or give them failure drills, their performance wasn't as good.

And I don't completely agree with the 16 hours of training concept. At least not in the form it is usually presented.

After watching shooters where I worked go through "full training days", it's easy to see that it is really counter productive. People get tired after a couple of hours, and all you end up doing is getting them to reinforce poor technique after a period of time. We changed our training after realizing that all we were doing was checking a box, instead of making people ready for a violent encounter.

People learn much better by spending less time, but doing it more frequently, than jamming it all in at once.

You definitely need 16 hrs of training!

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