"Higher End"/"Exotic" rifle choices...

Trumpet · Jul 12, 2014

I also posted this on ARF, so if you read it there....carry on.
Ok,
So, I like quality and I'm not made of money. I'm definitely in the "buy once cry once" camp. This brings me to .22 rifles...specifically rifles getting close to $1k. Now, for me once we start getting to that price range, the gun better be damned accurate. It should also be reliable and built very well. To me, the exotics are the Baikal/Izhmash/RWC Biathlon series rifles and the PWS Summit T3 (I've always been intrigued by the toggle actions). Other than cool-factor, do any of these offer anything that a similarly priced Annie cannot? Is the draw of these most likely because "variety/spice....."? I would imagine parts availability with the Russkie rifle could be difficult, and the PWS not so much. Speaking of Annies, I know the 54 action is "the" action, but is the 64 good? I don't necessarily want a "dedicated" target rifle, just a really nice "jack of all trades". I have enough plinkers so a tricked out 10/22 need not apply. So, in the $700-$1000 bolt gun category, which of the following would you choose and why?

PWS Summit for $678

RWC/Izh Baikal for $892

RWC/Izh Sobol (like Baikal with irons)

Anschutz 1416D HB for $799

Anschutz-1416-D-HB-Nuss-classic-beavertail_zps24087bd3.jpg

coopermania · Jul 12, 2014

I hate to break it to you but IMHO 700 to 1000 is not going to buy you a new higher end rim fire target rifle.
I own a Annie position single shot 54 my dad bought new in 68. It went through my brothr and myself, It has had a hard life and it shoots as well today as it did when it was new.
I bought a new 40X 22 rf Remington about 15 yrs ago.
Then I bought a Cooper 22 rf Montana Varminter for my son a few years ago.
All three of them shoot very well.

Trumpet · Jul 12, 2014

coopermania said:
I hate to break it to you but IMHO 700 to 1000 is not going to buy you a new higher end rim fire target rifle.
I own a Annie position single shot 54 my dad bought new in 68. It went through my brothr and myself, It has had a hard life and it shoots as well today as it did when it was new.
I bought a new 40X 22 rf Remington about 15 yrs ago.
Then I bought a Cooper 22 rf Montana Varminter for my son a few years ago.
All three of them shoot very well.

Fine. High end to me :rolleyes:

. Keep in mind though, I'm not looking for a dedicated target rifle. I want a repeater, not a single shot. I had a H&R M12 (I miss it) and a Kimber 82G. I want a repeater.

coopermania · Jul 12, 2014

I would look at what kimber has to offer in that price range, and maybe look at the next level of annies.
Are you wanting open match style sights or optics ??

My Remington and my sons Cooper are both magazine fed.

Mike OTDP · Jul 12, 2014

For a semi auto? Try http://www.carlwalther.com/gsp_rifle.htm

Trumpet · Jul 12, 2014

No interest in semi. The 15-22 fills that role.

Jimbob2.0 · Jul 12, 2014

This is the exotic I have been craving, just cant bring myself to open my wallet for $6 bills for it.

Keep hoping Ill find one on clearance somewhere. The nickel and engraving is awesome.

Augie · Jul 13, 2014

I'd save another grand or so and get a Cooper LVT, buy once cry once. I have a strong preference to American made.
Of the ones you listed I would go with the Annie, time proven accuracy, my problem with the Annies is the usually have very plain wood.

rico903 · Jul 13, 2014

That 1416 Annie for $799 is a good price. For an all around great shooter you can get a poor man's Annie, a CZ for under $500. Do some research on them at rimfirecentral.com and look at the targets guys are shooting. Also and old BRNO #4 is a heck of a shooter, about $700. You'll have to look around GB for one. A Kimber 82 is also one to consider.
Rimfirecentral is your friend for this search and info. A 64 Annie will shoot as good as most people are capable.
If you want an exotic you're going to have to pony up a lot more than a grand. Coopers are beautiful.

Trumpet · Jul 13, 2014

rico903 said:
That 1416 Annie for $799 is a good price. For an all around great shooter you can get a poor man's Annie, a CZ for under $500. Do some research on them at rimfirecentral.com and look at the targets guys are shooting. Also and old BRNO #4 is a heck of a shooter, about $700. You'll have to look around GB for one. A Kimber 82 is also one to consider.
Rimfirecentral is your friend for this search and info. A 64 Annie will shoot as good as most people are capable.
If you want an exotic you're going to have to pony up a lot more than a grand. Coopers are beautiful.

I spend a LOT of time over at RFC. I bought a 452 Varmint back in '98ish before CZ's got really popular. With a Brooks trigger kit, it's a laser. IMO, CZ is always a contender. I'm all for buying domestic but after the last election stuff, I won't buy Cooper. I would LOVE to find a like new 513-T but, I have a hard time buying an old, used rifle sight unseen.

coopermania · Jul 13, 2014

Trumpet said:
I spend a LOT of time over at RFC. I bought a 452 Varmint back in '98ish before CZ's got really popular. With a Brooks trigger kit, it's a laser. IMO, CZ is always a contender. I'm all for buying domestic but after the last election stuff, I won't buy Cooper. I would LOVE to find a like new 513-T but, I have a hard time buying an old, used rifle sight unseen.

For you not to buy a Cooper Rifle is silly, Dan Cooper is long gone from Cooper Arms. He was bought out within a few short weeks of his flawed thinking when he wrote checks to both political party's. Yep he made a huge mistake, And he lost his life's dreams over it. Its a shame because Dan is a great guy. Their rifles are shooters and that's a fact. Plus they have been great investments. Not too many years ago base price on there rifles was about 60% of what it is now. Not to many firearms have done that. You don't hold the company responsible for what the CEO does. Sorry but I am a little biased because my son and I own many Cooper rifles and Dan is a friend of mine. Cooper

Trumpet · Jul 13, 2014

Ok, I didn't know Dan Cooper left. Unfortunately, actions have consequences. Anywho, there's no doubt Cooper makes a nice stick, but they're way over my budget.

MachtSchnell · Jul 13, 2014

Give CZ a look. Their quality is extremely impressive for their cost. The 452's seem to be hard to come by, but the 455's are all over the place. Accuracy has never been an issue. If you can find an Ultra Lux or a Trainer, they have a the excellent sliding tangent rear sight. The CZs I've shot are a hoot to shoot and need no out of the box modifications, though some people do simple trigger work. Trigger work just consists of shims, and I've never found the need for them.

Price ranges from about $300-400.

rico903 · Jul 13, 2014

CZ 452s are being fazed out and replaced by the 455s. With a 455 you can change barrels but I'll stick with the 452 for now. The open sites on the 452 are much better than the new 455 sites though I hear CZ is bringing the old sites back-listening to their customers. I just bought a BRNO # 4 with a DIP sear in it for $700 and it is exceptional. They make them for CZs also. A cheap $40 trigger fix if you don't want to do the trigger job yourself, though are very good directions on rimfire central on how to do it. They are tack drivers. Treat yourself and get a Trainer/Special or really go for it and get a UL. You'll never look back and can always sell for what you have in it. Look around GB and the TPC classifieds on RFC, usually some model for sale. $300-$500. If you are looking to scope it and target shoot a Varmint model would be ideal. I just picked up a 453 Varmint off GB for $525-the 453 has a single set trigger which is perfect for bench work and the regular trigger setting is good for hunting.

rico903 · Jul 14, 2014

coopermania said:
For you not to buy a Cooper Rifle is silly, Dan Cooper is long gone from Cooper Arms. He was bought out within a few short weeks of his flawed thinking when he wrote checks to both political party's. Yep he made a huge mistake, And he lost his life's dreams over it. Its a shame because Dan is a great guy. Their rifles are shooters and that's a fact. Plus they have been great investments. Not too many years ago base price on there rifles was about 60% of what it is now. Not to many firearms have done that. You don't hold the company responsible for what the CEO does. Sorry but I am a little biased because my son and I own many Cooper rifles and Dan is a friend of mine. Cooper

No doubt Cooper makes a fine looking and shooting rifle but way out of my budget. Also, as they say, A fish rots from the head down. So as goes the CEO so goes the company. None the less, I'd like to own one some day to complement my Annie 1710 DKL

JoeRinMD · Jul 14, 2014

When he was younger, my son was involved in NRA through AAF&G's Junior Rifle Program. He started with a CZ-452 Scout that I modified to add an aperture rear sight and a globe front sight, along with a sling swivel. For such a tiny gun and short barrel, that gun was a real tack-driver. And, the only plastic on the gun was the mag well liner. Other than that it was blued steel and hardwood. The other benefit of the Scout was that it came with a single-shot adapter, but all standard CZ mags can be used if a repeater is needed or desired. I don't hunt, but that rifle would be an absolutely great woods squirrel rifle.

When he outgrew the CZ, I bought him a Izmash CM-2 Cadet, that he used for a couple of years. Like most Russian items, it was relatively crudely finished, but functioned perfectly. For example, the barrel showed the spiral marks from the hammer-forging process that were never machined/polished away. Unfortunately, he outgrew that rifle relatively quickly.

And finally when he was big enough to need an adult-sized rifle, I bought a Anschutz 1407 from Mac Tilton. This rifle uses the 54 action, and with a barrel and stock combination that was designed for 3/4 position shooting. The gun was quite old, the barrel dated from 1976, but was in very good shape and the price was quite reasonable for the package including sights. The trigger is what's most impressive about that rifle. It's set for a few ounces and it's perfectly consistent, while still being safe at such a low release weight. He still loves to take the Annie out for a session and is capable of putting multiple shots into a tight cloverleaf with it.

One of these days I'll transfer all of them to him for his children to learn on and enjoy.

For myself, I'd love to have a toggle-action rifle just for the fun of something completely different. Stupidly, I passed on a Izmash Biathlon 7-3 or 7-4 that they were selling at Bay Country Guns a few years ago. I've been tempted by the Biathlon Basic, but the stock design leaves me cold, and no one has yet started to make after-market stocks to fit it. Right now, I'm thinking about a Primary Weapons Systems T-3, which is an adaptation of the Ruger 10-22 receiver into a toggle-action. That could be a fun project, just to buy the receiver and bolt, piecing it together with 10-22 parts.

JoeR

Trumpet · Jul 14, 2014

JoeRinMD said:
When he was younger, my son was involved in NRA through AAF&G's Junior Rifle Program. He started with a CZ-452 Scout that I modified to add an aperture rear sight and a globe front sight, along with a sling swivel. For such a tiny gun and short barrel, that gun was a real tack-driver. And, the only plastic on the gun was the mag well liner. Other than that it was blued steel and hardwood. The other benefit of the Scout was that it came with a single-shot adapter, but all standard CZ mags can be used if a repeater is needed or desired. I don't hunt, but that rifle would be an absolutely great woods squirrel rifle.

When he outgrew the CZ, I bought him a Izmash CM-2 Cadet, that he used for a couple of years. Like most Russian items, it was relatively crudely finished, but functioned perfectly. For example, the barrel showed the spiral marks from the hammer-forging process that were never machined/polished away. Unfortunately, he outgrew that rifle relatively quickly.

And finally when he was big enough to need an adult-sized rifle, I bought a Anschutz 1407 from Mac Tilton. This rifle uses the 54 action, and with a barrel and stock combination that was designed for 3/4 position shooting. The gun was quite old, the barrel dated from 1976, but was in very good shape and the price was quite reasonable for the package including sights. The trigger is what's most impressive about that rifle. It's set for a few ounces and it's perfectly consistent, while still being safe at such a low release weight. He still loves to take the Annie out for a session and is capable of putting multiple shots into a tight cloverleaf with it.

One of these days I'll transfer all of them to him for his children to learn on and enjoy.

For myself, I'd love to have a toggle-action rifle just for the fun of something completely different. Stupidly, I passed on a Izmash Biathlon 7-3 or 7-4 that they were selling at Bay Country Guns a few years ago. I've been tempted by the Biathlon Basic, but the stock design leaves me cold, and no one has yet started to make after-market stocks to fit it. Right now, I'm thinking about a Primary Weapons Systems T-3, which is an adaptation of the Ruger 10-22 receiver into a toggle-action. That could be a fun project, just to buy the receiver and bolt, piecing it together with 10-22 parts.

JoeR

I've heard that when buying just the Summit receiver and building the rifle, it can be finnicky (but manageable). I've not seen those reports on the complete PWS rifles though.

As to the CZ's....I know, I know..

, as I said earlier I bought a 452 Varmint back in '97. Love it. I'd love to find a 453 varmint. I know when the 455 was introduced a LOT of CZ owners were skeptical thinking it was cutting corners and wouldn't be as good as the 452. Since that was a couple years ago, what is the consensus now?

Augie · Jul 14, 2014

There are a couple very nice rifles in the classifieds at Rimfire Central,a Kimber K22 and a Remington 541 heavy barrel. The Kimber is a sweet rifle at 1100.00

Blacksmith101 · Jul 14, 2014

Any of the rifles that in their time were the High End (for that time) target rifles that are on the used market would fit the bill if in good condition, hard to shoot out a .22 target barrel. So take a look at 40x, Winchester 52, etc they can be found in that price range. They still shoot better than most people and could take a talented shooter to the state championships. Today the true High End rifles are double that cost but if you have your sights set on the Olympics.

Pinecone · Jul 14, 2014

School me on the biathalon rifles. I too would love have toggle action.

What is the difference between a 7-3 and 7-4?

Thanks.

"Higher End"/"Exotic" rifle choices...

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