Received my Tax Stamp: Guidance requested on 9mm conversion

clandestine · Mar 24, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Thats just the thing, it not going to help you a bit! If the serial number matching up is not enough, having some piece of paper with some other configs is not going to be enough either. Or do you think the cop on the side of the road is going to break out his tape measure and check your Barrel length and OAL... come on.

Here is why you should not do what you are doing. By having one standard config listed, its reasonable to explain, "well thats the standard config, however I have added some upgrades". Nothing wrong with upgrades. However if you have say 5 configs listed and of course you just got something new and have not listed it yet... well now, the officer sees 5 different possible configs and you don't have any one of them. Well now that story seems fishy. If you have these configs listed in such detail, now that its different, now that does not make sense that you would be able to alter into a config not listed.

Also, the officer runs into you and now thinks your method is standard, now they run into the next guy who instead of listing them on his form 4, attaches a sheet... oh no! That can't be right, you are suppose to list them under you description because anyone could add a sheet of paper. I don't see the ATF sign off on this additional piece of paper... to jail clandestine goes...

Anyway you cut it, doing more than the legal requirement is not normally a good idea. It causes confusion because no one but you does your CYA method. It gives you no more protection unless you just happen to get a dumb officer. It can waste a lot of ATF processing time...etc. If you really can't sleep at night without this, you should not involve yourself in guns that need paperwork.

The LEO on the side of the road is not why I do it. I do it because I have dealt with enough ATF Agents to know that many don't know the law they are tasked to enforce. Having documents prevents headaches because it intimidates them.

IMBLITZVT · Mar 24, 2014

Semper Noctem said:
Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

I don't really think so. It just annoying to see people creating more work for the ATF and slowing down the process for this CYA stuff that is pointless. Do you have two guns you are not expecting to see for a year because ATF processing time is so high? If you did I would expect that you may understand better? I have $30K of guns in transfer right now and the transfer are slow as crap. Anything that slows down the process is not going to be popular with me... and I don't think I was being that harsh anyway or at least I was not meaning to be. Just trying to point out why not to do it!

NateIU10 said:
There is no requirement to notify ATF of changes. The forms are filled out for the configuration when MADE. Whether the change is permanent or temporary (ie. you can or cannot return it to original configuration), you do not have to update it.

Now, they recommend you update the info in the NFRTR, but there is no requirement to do so.

Thats pretty much what I am saying. If you were legally required to do so, there would be a penalty associated with it. If you do not have a tax stamp for a SBR, thats a 10 year in jail thing. Not having the barrel length up to date gets you what? A strong talking to?

clandestine said:
The LEO on the side of the road is not why I do it. I do it because I have dealt with enough ATF Agents to know that many don't know the law they are tasked to enforce. Having documents prevents headaches because it intimidates them.

You may have more experience dealing with ATF than I do, I don't know. However I know many big time NFA collectors and none do that kind of crap. If they send some agent that does not know the law, they tell them to learn it and then come back. Last time the ATF (pickles) told me I did something wrong I called him, proved it to him and he thanked he for educating him on NFA rules. I was not worried about preventing headaches by intimidating him.

Do what you want but you just wait. One day you will lose one of your Alternate config lists and the ATF agent will then really want to know why that particular gun is not as marked and it will make explaining it much worse. IMO, you are wasting your time, ATFs time, All NFA owners time and for little to no advantage... If we all followed your example, NFA transfer would be taking 2 years while they devote half their staff or more filing your alternate config letters...

rsideout · Mar 24, 2014

Here is a copy of a 2009 letter from BATFE on SBR's. (Not mine) See answer A6 on notification of a temporary change in configuration. Sorry these are a little hard to read. Below is a photo and a PDF of the letter.

bobthefisher · Mar 24, 2014

Huh, well that letter fly's in the face, that one would need to fill out a Form 20 (atf-f-5320-20) for a registered SBR, only if it's being transferred as an SBR. I've always been told to fill out a Form 20 for any NFA item, besides suppressors, no matter the configuration. Hhhhmmmmm, you learn something everyday... perhaps?

BTW: I hate these one-for-one ATF statement letters (cite 922r letters).

Thanks, rsideout for the letter... where did you find it?

rsideout · Mar 24, 2014

It was posted by member on UziTalk about 3-4 years ago.

clandestine · Mar 24, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
I don't really think so. It just annoying to see people creating more work for the ATF and slowing down the process for this CYA stuff that is pointless. Do you have two guns you are not expecting to see for a year because ATF processing time is so high? If you did I would expect that you may understand better? I have $30K of guns in transfer right now and the transfer are slow as crap. Anything that slows down the process is not going to be popular with me... and I don't think I was being that harsh anyway or at least I was not meaning to be. Just trying to point out why not to do it!

Thats pretty much what I am saying. If you were legally required to do so, there would be a penalty associated with it. If you do not have a tax stamp for a SBR, thats a 10 year in jail thing. Not having the barrel length up to date gets you what? A strong talking to?

You may have more experience dealing with ATF than I do, I don't know. However I know many big time NFA collectors and none do that kind of crap. If they send some agent that does not know the law, they tell them to learn it and then come back. Last time the ATF (pickles) told me I did something wrong I called him, proved it to him and he thanked he for educating him on NFA rules. I was not worried about preventing headaches by intimidating him.

Do what you want but you just wait. One day you will lose one of your Alternate config lists and the ATF agent will then really want to know why that particular gun is not as marked and it will make explaining it much worse. IMO, you are wasting your time, ATFs time, All NFA owners time and for little to no advantage... If we all followed your example, NFA transfer would be taking 2 years while they devote half their staff or more filing your alternate config letters...

I wont be losing any of my paperwork. I have copies in each vehicle and I have the documents scanned electronically and stored on a remote server.

Ill continue doing my "crap" as you say, but then again Im not worried about waiting long because I am doing electronic forms.

A far as what other "big time" collectors do is of no consequence to me. If I lead by example I could be like one who lost his NFA Trust and lost his tax stamps (No Copies were made of the FOrm 4's or the NFA Trust) for at least 20 NFA devices.

bm3r · Mar 24, 2014

Thank you everyone for your input!

In summary, as long as I am able to return my sbr to its original state I am good to go.

Any 9mm conversion experts out there?

I want to do it right and dont mind spending the extra money to do so :thumbsup:

1.) Hahn Conversion block
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...kits/ar-15-9mm-conversion-block-prod1548.aspx

2.) Colt 6951 9mm complete 16" pencil barrel
-will have it shortened to possibly 8.5 up to 10.5 inches

3.) Missing anything?

4.) I will be running my SWR Octane 45HD on it

Thanks!!

clandestine · Mar 25, 2014

bm3r said:
Thank you everyone for your input!

In summary, as long as I am able to return my sbr to its original state I am good to go.

Any 9mm conversion experts out there?

I want to do it right and dont mind spending the extra money to do so

1.) Hahn Conversion block
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...kits/ar-15-9mm-conversion-block-prod1548.aspx

2.) Colt 6951 9mm complete 16" pencil barrel
-will have it shortened to possibly 8.5 up to 10.5 inches

3.) Missing anything?

4.) I will be running my SWR Octane 45HD on it

Thanks!!

Unless you plan on swapping hammers (Colt 9mm Bolts use a special hammer), then you need to pay to have the bolt ramped so you can use a standard hammer. ADCO does ramping services. They can chop and thread you barrel too if your using a non metric thread as well.

IMBLITZVT · Mar 25, 2014

clandestine said:
...Ill continue doing my "crap" as you say, but then again Im not worried about waiting long because I am doing electronic forms......

Well from the rest of us, thanks for helping to slow down the process... its not slow enough maybe you should start monthly updates.

Just make sure to update MSP too! On their annual registration form, they want to know your weight, occupation, Gun Finish, Barrel Length...etc among other things. Make sure you let them know if you pack on a few extra pounds after Thanksgiving! Or decided to Duracoat that Anodized receiver...

The lengths people go to so they can have some artificial sense of safety... :tdown:

clandestine · Mar 25, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Well from the rest of us, thanks for helping to slow down the process... its not slow enough maybe you should start monthly updates.

Just make sure to update MSP too! On their annual registration form, they want to know your weight, occupation, Gun Finish, Barrel Length...etc among other things. Make sure you let them know if you pack on a few extra pounds after Thanksgiving! Or decided to Duracoat that Anodized receiver...

The lengths people go to so they can have some artificial sense of safety...

My security is fine and you are very welcome.

ericoak · Mar 25, 2014

There is no legal requirement to notify the ATF of an in state change of address either.

ar15dave · Mar 25, 2014

bm3r said:
Thank you everyone for your input!

In summary, as long as I am able to return my sbr to its original state I am good to go.

Any 9mm conversion experts out there?

I want to do it right and dont mind spending the extra money to do so

1.) Hahn Conversion block
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...kits/ar-15-9mm-conversion-block-prod1548.aspx

2.) Colt 6951 9mm complete 16" pencil barrel
-will have it shortened to possibly 8.5 up to 10.5 inches

3.) Missing anything?

4.) I will be running my SWR Octane 45HD on it

Thanks!!

I have two 9mm Uppers for my AR and one is an LRM-169 9mm upper.

The Hahn magwell block is a good one. There is a more sophisticated one from Spikes that will even hold open last round. I like the simplicity of the Hahn style top load block. Easy in and out and the only adjustment is the extractor hook. As for bolts, I would recommend CMMG ramped 9mm bolt. It allows you to use your stock AR hammer/LPK with the bolt. Again easy swap out of uppers for other calibers. As for 9mm uppers, I have a Gemtech Talon 9mm upper for use with my Multimount suppressor and an LRM-169 integrally suppressed 9mm upper. Both designed for/with suppressors. Not sure what other brand upper is good.

Hope this helps. Just my 2 cents from my own experience.

Dave

bm3r · Mar 25, 2014

clandestine said:
Unless you plan on swapping hammers (Colt 9mm Bolts use a special hammer), then you need to pay to have the bolt ramped so you can use a standard hammer. ADCO does ramping services. They can chop and thread you barrel too if your using a non metric thread as well.

Hey Clandestine,

Looks like the factory 6951 are already ramped?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=403257976

So with this upper I will not need a new hammer?

Tnx!!

bm3r · Mar 25, 2014

ar15dave said:
I have two 9mm Uppers for my AR and one is an LRM-169 9mm upper.

The Hahn magwell block is a good one. There is a more sophisticated one from Spikes that will even hold open last round. I like the simplicity of the Hahn style top load block. Easy in and out and the only adjustment is the extractor hook. As for bolts, I would recommend CMMG ramped 9mm bolt. It allows you to use your stock AR hammer/LPK with the bolt. Again easy swap out of uppers for other calibers. As for 9mm uppers, I have a Gemtech Talon 9mm upper for use with my Multimount suppressor and an LRM-169 integrally suppressed 9mm upper. Both designed for/with suppressors. Not sure what other brand upper is good.

Hope this helps. Just my 2 cents from my own experience.

Dave

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the info!

Looks like brownells has a few with the bolt hold open feature. I dont think i want the dedicated version because i read its difficult to convert back to its original state. Lastly, how does spikes compare to these?

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-9mm-conversion-block-magazine-prod44334.aspx

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...dedicated-9mm-conversion-block-prod24937.aspx

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...kits/ar-15-9mm-conversion-block-prod1548.aspx

Tnx!!

clandestine · Mar 25, 2014

bm3r said:
Hey Clandestine,

Looks like the factory 6951 are already ramped?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=403257976

So with this upper I will not need a new hammer?

Tnx!!

Ramp looks short. If Colt puts a standard AR15 hammer in that model then you'll be fine.

ar15dave · Mar 26, 2014

bm3r said:
Hey Dave,

Thanks for the info!

Looks like brownells has a few with the bolt hold open feature. I dont think i want the dedicated version because i read its difficult to convert back to its original state. Lastly, how does spikes compare to these?

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-9mm-conversion-block-magazine-prod44334.aspx

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...dedicated-9mm-conversion-block-prod24937.aspx

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...kits/ar-15-9mm-conversion-block-prod1548.aspx

Tnx!!

Nah, I did not want a dedicated version as well. I have a dedicated upper but the lower is a stock AR15 5.56 lower. I have two magwell blocks. One is Spikes Tactical Enhanced which is cool, but takes a bit to get installed and you need an allen wrench. I have a Hahn magwell block I got from 9mmAR.com that is a top load magwell block. It installs with no tools in seconds and comes in and out quickly. The magazine release holds it in. Never had it come out when removing a magazine. Fits really snug. I like it a lot. Cycles just fine and uses Metalform, Colt, ProMags, and Beta-C Drums compatible magazines.

http://stores.9mmar.com/hahn-precision-top-magwell-block/

Dave

bm3r · Mar 26, 2014

ar15dave said:
Nah, I did not want a dedicated version as well. I have a dedicated upper but the lower is a stock AR15 5.56 lower. I have two magwell blocks. One is Spikes Tactical Enhanced which is cool, but takes a bit to get installed and you need an allen wrench. I have a Hahn magwell block I got from 9mmAR.com that is a top load magwell block. It installs with no tools in seconds and comes in and out quickly. The magazine release holds it in. Never had it come out when removing a magazine. Fits really snug. I like it a lot. Cycles just fine and uses Metalform, Colt, ProMags, and Beta-C Drums compatible magazines.

http://stores.9mmar.com/hahn-precision-top-magwell-block/

Dave

Awesome thank you! Will the colt 6951 9mm upper be ok for my 5.56 lower? Ive been told mixed things.

bm3r · Mar 26, 2014

clandestine said:
Ramp looks short. If Colt puts a standard AR15 hammer in that model then you'll be fine.

Copy that ill have to ask around tnx!

ar15dave · Mar 26, 2014

bm3r said:
Copy that ill have to ask around tnx!

I used a CMMG Ramped bolt. it has worked awesomely for me.

Dave

Received my Tax Stamp: Guidance requested on 9mm conversion

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