ATF looking to reclassify projectiles

[Tyeraxus]

Are you sure about that..?? "Manufacturing" by the ATF's definition is a very specific concept, it means you are in the "Business" (this is a very important distinction) of producing something for commercial sale to the public, and I don't believe that handloading ammunition at home for your own personal use was ever, or is currently considered "manufacturing" by BATF.

It doesn't say "for a manufacturer to," it says "for any person to manufacture." "Manufacturer" means a licensed manufacturer, per 921, but "person" includes "any individual." Here's the specific piece of 922(a)(7):

(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, unless—

And then it lists a couple of exemptions - manufacturing for export, or under permission of the Attorney General, or for a governmental entity.

Repeal is best, but RIFs are a start and send a message to those who engage in adventuresome pursuits to re-interpret regs to curtail liberties. Fire those involved in this process; fire those involved in enforcing it.

RIFs won't hit who you want them to hit. RIF starts with the low man on the totem pole and works up. The people setting policy are SESers and political appointees. All you'll do is replace low-level people with contractors. My agency, for example, has an FTE cap - what that means in practice is we have more SESs than we do members of the entire workforce under GS-9. Hell, I think we have more politicals than <9s, we're that top-heavy. Yeah, RIF has set procedures... but somehow, if seems that if the White House wants somebody in particular to stay, it happens.

 

[swinokur]

A RIF could cause even fewer NFA examiners on the job. The wait for paperwork is long enough already.

Not sure RIF's get to the actual problem. ie. bureaucrats with a penchant to control our lives.

 

[Shoobedoo]

It doesn't say "for a manufacturer to," it says "for any person to manufacture." "Manufacturer" means a licensed manufacturer, per 921, but "person" includes "any individual." Here's the specific piece of 922(a)(7):
And then it lists a couple of exemptions - manufacturing for export, or under permission of the Attorney General, or for a governmental entity.

If that's the case then anybody who has large stocks of M855 bullets for reloading is going to be royally screwed, because once the ban goes in to effect producing loaded cartridges with those bullets would make you an illegal manufacturer of armor piercing ammunition. One guy earlier in this thread stated he had several thousand M855 bullets for reloading so he wasn't particularly worried about any ban. If what you're suggesting is true he's going to be stuck with a big pile of useless bullets he'll never be able to load without risking becoming a felon.

 

[danb]

It doesn't say "for a manufacturer to," it says "for any person to manufacture." "Manufacturer" means a licensed manufacturer, per 921, but "person" includes "any individual." Here's the specific piece of 922(a)(7):


And then it lists a couple of exemptions - manufacturing for export, or under permission of the Attorney General, or for a governmental entity.

Right, but the question is: what is it you are not allowed to manufacture? The bullet itself, or the loaded cartridge?

Seems to me, its the bullet that's banned. You cannot make the bullet.

 

[Tyeraxus]

Right, but the question is: what is it you are not allowed to manufacture? The bullet itself, or the loaded cartridge?

Seems to me, its the bullet that's banned. You cannot make the bullet.

I'm not exactly sure - some of the pages I've seen say that only fully assembled M855 was given the "sporting use" exemption, not the bullet itself, but the ATF notice says they intend to reclassify "constituent projectiles" from M855, and prohibit manufacture of "such ammunition." Then again, 921 defines "ammunition" as fully assembled or constituent pieces. I was probably too quick to say flat-out you can't reload, but I know I wouldn't trust ATF not to hassle the hell out of a reloader making the things and run them up a legal bill.

 

[fidelity]

...
RIFs won't hit who you want them to hit. RIF starts with the low man on the totem pole and works up. The people setting policy are SESers and political appointees. All you'll do is replace low-level people with contractors. My agency, for example, has an FTE cap - what that means in practice is we have more SESs than we do members of the entire workforce under GS-9. Hell, I think we have more politicals than <9s, we're that top-heavy. Yeah, RIF has set procedures... but somehow, if seems that if the White House wants somebody in particular to stay, it happens.

??

We are talking past each other. When I first mentioned a RIF, it was in the context of a new Republican administration which could change the direction of ATF priorities. Political appointees are of course replaced. When an agency's FTEs are cut, or there is a limit on where new FTE hires can be placed (which is easily done as you must know), it gets attention. SESs and other higher ups hate losing staff.

I would love to have some Republican candidates mention ATF over reach in the campaigns (can easily focus on the Mexican gun running debacle). I think this threat is credible from someone like Walker, Cruz, or Paul, but if the GOP nominates someone like Bush, I don't expect him to do much that benefits us.

 

[Shoobedoo]

I'm not exactly sure - some of the pages I've seen say that only fully assembled M855 was given the "sporting use" exemption, not the bullet itself, but the ATF notice says they intend to reclassify "constituent projectiles" from M855, and prohibit manufacture of "such ammunition." Then again, 921 defines "ammunition" as fully assembled or constituent pieces. I was probably too quick to say flat-out you can't reload, but I know I wouldn't trust ATF not to hassle the hell out of a reloader making the things and run them up a legal bill.

I don't have a pony in this rodeo because I don't reload, but if I was someone sitting on a pile of green tip projectiles I would want to know for sure I wasn't committing a felony by loading up some ammo using these bullets, if and when this proposed rule goes in to effect.

 

[BinaryBoris]

I think you underestimate what goes on. These people know full well what they are doing. The Lois Lerners know what the deal is and they do what they do because they can.

Oh I don't underestimate the fact that they know what they're doing, in that they want to disarm the public. This desire is fed by a hunger for power and control as much as it is exacerbated by a relative ignorance of the things they are trying to ban/control.

 

[danb]

I'm not exactly sure - some of the pages I've seen say that only fully assembled M855 was given the "sporting use" exemption, not the bullet itself, but the ATF notice says they intend to reclassify "constituent projectiles" from M855, and prohibit manufacture of "such ammunition." Then again, 921 defines "ammunition" as fully assembled or constituent pieces. I was probably too quick to say flat-out you can't reload, but I know I wouldn't trust ATF not to hassle the hell out of a reloader making the things and run them up a legal bill.

The ATF memo repeatedly distinguishes between the cartridges and projectiles. e.g. p11:

Determining the “likely use” in the general community of any type of ammunition necessarily involves examination of the cartridges in which the armor piercing projectile s can be loaded, and the handguns that are readily available to accept those cartridges.

and p14:

As explained above, in 1986, ATF held that 5.56mm projectiles in SS109 and M855 cartridges were exempt.

The "framework" (p12) for their analysis is one about projectiles. Where the cartridge comes in and where it gets confusing is that the cartridge relates to the use - i.e. is the projectile loaded into a cartridge for a handgun, or not. 30-06 M2AP is exempt because the cartridge is only for a rifle. Presumably, if I took the same projectile as in 30-06 M2AP and loaded it into a different cartridge, that may be used in a .30 cal pistol, it's no longer exempt. There are no pistols that shoot 30-06, except for single shot pistols. Could I take the projectile from 30-06 M2AP, put it into a .308 cartridge? No, because there are .308 semi-auto pistols out there, right? But if somebody did that, goodbye 30-06 M2AP exemption.


M855 cartridges are legal to possess after the ban, as are any projectiles you bought pre-ban. But ... if you have a pile of the projectiles, can you (re)load them into cartridges? Can you load the projectiles into different cartridges only used in rifles (22-250 cartridge comes to mind, for hog hunting of course)? What happens at the gun range stays at the gun range, so how would they even know or be able to prove this happened post-ban, unless you were dumb enough to try to sell the ammo?


Legal, or not, I generally agree they will try to harass people. Load em while you can, that's what I would do.

 

[BinaryBoris]

FYI Widener's just had some cases of IMIM855 come in stock. $539/1200 https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9019&dir=18%7C830%7C845

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

$100 more than they were last Friday...no thanks.

 

[BinaryBoris]

Right. Widener's is selling them not me. That's why it was an "FYI".

I didn't have any, so I was happy to pay an extra $0.08 a round today ($0.47 a round delivered) from Widener's rather than going through the hassle of getting in my time machine and going back to last Friday (or paying an extra $0.20 to $0.30 a round today from an auction site). Others might be in the same situation as I was, so hopefully they will find this information useful.

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

It was a comment on Wideners more so than you.

 

[F-Stop]

I went to Cabela for some heavy 9mm since my stamp is back. No 855 type on the shelves which I expected but it was nice to see shelves and shelves of Xtac, AE, and other m193 still.

 

[Twanger]

Sign the petition against this...

41,000 signed so far. Need 58,000+

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

 

[BinaryBoris]

It was a comment on Wideners more so than you.

Roger that. Just trying to help those who had none.

 

[fidelity]

In the same spirit, for those willing to spend $0.50/rd, Midway is clearing their stocks ...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/54...tal-jacket-10-round-clips-in-ammo-can-of-1000

Swedish production of M855.

 

[giggity]

I refuse to buy them at that inflated price but the again I already have some to keep me happy for the time being. Hopeful this passes over and nothing gets baned.

 

[BinaryBoris]

Yes. I share the same hope but it's hard for me to be optimistic.

When they went after the 2nd Amendment last (early 2013), they went big. The issue was universalized and was shoved directly into the faces of the American public to the extent that they could not ignore it. Fortunately, this led to enough of the American public to express significant opposition through their elected representatives. Those politicians realized that to get re-elected, they could not support the early 2013 legislation.

What we're facing now is far more insidious and devilishly effective. By going after little things one at a time, they can simply fly it under the radar of the majority of the American people.

Sure, we who frequent firearms forums know that this proposed ban is based upon completely asinine and flawed logic. But if you asked the general public what they thought about "M855" they wouldn't know what you were talking about. God forbid you mention that there's a ban on something that is even moderately considered to be armor piercing (even though we know high powered rifle rounds are more effective at doing this). This likely makes it even harder to influence our representatives because they know this is a tough sell to their voters, especially when the ATF throws in the "law enforcement officer safety" aspect.

Again, we know better, but the average American simply does not - and there is no chance they will ever even know about this ban. It won't be on the news, it won't be in the papers, and Obama won't be marching himself in front of a teleprompter flanked by police officers to talk about it. The average American will never know about it and they won't care, despite the fact that it's yet another piece of their 2nd Amendment rights (that they probably don't even exercise) that is being chipped away.

I want to have hope that this will be stopped through litigation, but it seems like a long shot … such a long shot that I am trying to make sure I have "enough".

 

[Qbeam]

Colin Noir has a good video about the issue:

http://youtu.be/rs-Pu8n_BHg


Q