A Curious Swiss 1911

[BinaryBoris]

Just received a Swiss 1911 from AIM Surplus (using the hand select option) and this one has a few characteristics that seem a bit odd (not in a bad way, just in a unique way).

First, there is a rail mounted to the top of the receiver. It's attached with what look like torx bolts, which leads me to believe
it was added no earlier than 1967 (unless the rail was there earlier and the bolts were swapped out to torx at some point).

Second, the serial number on the receiver is P453xxxC, while the serial number on the barrel is simply 453xxx (no P or C).

Last (and this is probably nothing), the buttstock has a hole drilled out about 6 or so inches deep. I don't recall seeing this on my
K31's (although I may have simply not been paying attention). Is this something that is typical for 1911's or was Bubba
hanging out in Switzerland recently? The rest of the stock looks unmodified as far as I can tell.

I've dated the rifle to 1917 and recall reading somewhere that the "P" serial number prefix was sometimes added to rifles after
they had been decommissioned and sent into private hands. This could explain the existence of what clearly appears to be an
old-school "after market" scope base. I am not at all familiar with the "C" serial number suffix.

Anyhow, I've consulted the Interwebs for the last hour or so and am coming up dry.

Any thoughts, observations, or analysis would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BinaryBoris]

As it turns out, I happened to have some 1" high rings sitting around, as well as a 9-24 power scope. It actually fit - although barely.

It looks a tad ridiculous and the eyepiece sits so far back I'd probably need some kind of extension so I could get anything resembling a cheek weld.
However, I'm wondering what sort of magic might be possible with a 24x scope on a 1911…

I'll likely just save up for a scope that looks a bit more "period specific" (like the Mosin PU scope style).

 

[toolness1]

Well, you seem to have a good attitude about the rifle so that is good. I would be pissed that it is drilled and tapped, but it sure would be handy! Ive also been dying to see how one of these Swiss rifles will shoot with a scope.

I finally did get a Swiss Products mount for my K-31 (clamp-on) but I haven't gotten around to installing it.

That 1911 looks in really nice shape. I am hugely fond of the one I got from SOG, but it is much more beat up with very little bluing left. Shoots great, though.

Nice rifle, I hope my 1911 Carbine is that nice when it arrives tomorrow!

 

[Machodoc]

Transferred into private hands, and often used for target rifles. You may have one that was a particularly nice shooter. The hole in the butt stock could mean that it was "leaded" at some point for competitive shooting at some level.

I agree with your conclusion that the sight rail is a relatively recent addition. That's not a bonus for most collectors, but you may have a start to a really effective deer or hog rifle. At least you can put a scope onto it without the bubba label being attached to you.

I'd have mixed feelings, at first, if I got one like that shipped to me as a hand select, but it may turn out to be something special. It's a very nice looking rifle, other than the rail.

BTW - I'm beginning to believe that AIM has women working in their shipping dept. who do "hand select" based upon which one stands out as the prettiest to them.

 

[Bafflingbs]

Boy, that thing is a beaut! My buddy just ordered the same, with the hand picked option. If his is half as nice as yours, he's doing good.

 

[amoebicmagician]

Well, you seem to have a good attitude about the rifle so that is good. I would be pissed that it is drilled and tapped, but it sure would be handy! Ive also been dying to see how one of these Swiss rifles will shoot with a scope.

I finally did get a Swiss Products mount for my K-31 (clamp-on) but I haven't gotten around to installing it.

That 1911 looks in really nice shape. I am hugely fond of the one I got from SOG, but it is much more beat up with very little bluing left. Shoots great, though.

Nice rifle, I hope my 1911 Carbine is that nice when it arrives tomorrow!

you and me both, range report with pictures PLEASE!!!!

 

[amoebicmagician]

how's the bore look?

 

[toolness1]

you and me both, range report with pictures PLEASE!!!!

I will for sure. Once I get my lazy butt to install the scope and mount!

 

[yellowsled]

If you like the tapped receiver, good for you. Me personally, I woiuld be hella pissed if I got that.

 

[falconguy]

Very nice rifle! If my Swiss 1911 from AIM has a scope mount attached to it I'm sending it back. Handpicked to me doesn't include a intrusive scope mount that isn't period correct. It's due to be delivered Friday.

 

[Augie]

I like it. The guns are not rare and the addition of the sight base is just another chapter in the rifles history. Most likely the base was for an aperture type target sight like this.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=000932

The Swiss are a nation of marksman and that rifle was someones pride and joy, who knows how many competitions the previous owner may have won with that rifle.
Pic of a STG90 with a target sight.

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/stg90_sght.jpg

I think you lucked out and received an unusual rifle, not the run of the mill.

 

[mawkie]

Agree w. Augie that it probably had a diopter sight mounted as that rail is too far back for anything but a short tube scope. Plus, without a high comb on the stock you'll find getting good cheek weld difficult using a scope.
If you were looking for a shooter then the surprise rail wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. 1911s are awesome shooters (I actually prefer them to the K31) but they're not easy to modify for improved sighting without making permanent changes. In that respect the K31 is superior.
Me, I'd be looking for a diopter and globe front sight (you'll need something taller to deal with the higher mounted diopter). I find that at 100 yds I'm just as good with a dialed in diopter sight setup as a scope, maybe better.
Curious to see what you settle on.

 

[Augie]

Here you go,
http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/1054#.VNNd5ilDE20

Mawkie helped by jogging my fogged memory for the correct term, diopter sight.

 

[nobis1]

I am with Augie and Mawkie on this. No way that rail was for a scope. If I received that, at first I would be pissed, and then once I thought about it, I think I would be pretty happy. That was likely a target rifle, pretty cool actually and likely a great shooter.

The wood and metal appear really nice from what I can see. Interested in knowing how the bore is though. Congrats! Mine arrives tomorrow, so I will try and post pictures.

 

[Melnic]

Did they restore the original front sight?
The diopter sights sometimes have a raised front sight that is thinner than the original I think.

 

[Abulg1972]

Well, you seem to have a good attitude about the rifle so that is good. I would be pissed that it is drilled and tapped, but it sure would be handy! Ive also been dying to see how one of these Swiss rifles will shoot with a scope.

I finally did get a Swiss Products mount for my K-31 (clamp-on) but I haven't gotten around to installing it.

That 1911 looks in really nice shape. I am hugely fond of the one I got from SOG, but it is much more beat up with very little bluing left. Shoots great, though.

Nice rifle, I hope my 1911 Carbine is that nice when it arrives tomorrow!

I agree. I would send that back without even pulling it out of the box. That rail was added by Bubba, and I have NO idea why Aim would ship that to you.

The P means "privat", which, in general, means that it was transferred to the soldier to whom it was issued when he retired. I've never seen the C after the serial number. Some Vetterli rifles are marked with a C for Cordier und Compagnie Bellefontaine, but they didn't make Schmidt-Rubins. You might want to post on the swissrifles.com forum. I will look at my Swiss rifle book tonight to see if it discusses that mark.

The hole in the butt stock is normal.

This is my K11. My M1896/11 has a similar hole.

 

[BinaryBoris]

Thanks for all the comments! Strangely enough, I somewhat agree with all of them - both the positive and negative.

I'm familiar with the "P" designation, as I have a P series K31 from 1963. However, the 1911 serial number data base does not include any P series 1911s from this number range. I can only assume it was stamped on afterwards. I've never seen a "C" on any Swiss serial numbers, period (not that it means they aren't out there - I just have no idea what it means).

At first I saw the rail and was very disappointed. I wanted the 1911 for its history, smooth lines, and accuracy/precision potential. But after checking it over, I considered the following:

1- This does not have to be (nor will it be) the only 1911 I will own. I can (and probably will) have a second in "original" issued condition.

2- As others have noted, this rail is part of this rifle's history. The "P" designation indicates it was indeed passed along to a Swiss civilian who, given what we know about the Swiss citizenry, was likely a shooting enthusiast just like many of us. Also as others have noted, it's very likely that the prior owner had a very good shooter, which justified the expense of having the receiver drilled and tapped, and a rail added.

3- Adding a scope to a 1911/K11/96-11 is not nearly as easy as adding one to a K31. I had already considered trying a scope on a 1911 (using one of the fairly obtrusive clamp-ons). Many report that the 1911 is the most accurate of the Swiss straight pulls. I already have a St. Marie clamp on scope on one of my K31s, so this will give me the chance to test that a little.

4- The rifle itself is in great shape, especially for its age (98 years old). The rifling is strong. I am cleaning out the dust/dirt now and will post pics of the inside of the barrel. The trigger is fantastic, with a 1.25 pound first stage and a crisp 2.75 pound second stage break.

5- My biggest beef should be with the hand-select fee. AIM probably shouldn't have sent this out as a "best of 5" rifle unless all 5 they pulled out had the rail on them. That's doubtful. If anything, I probably should feel justified in asking for a $20 credit.


I don't want to send this rifle back because the cost of adding a rail assembly is probably not cheap. Yes, it's a modification - but it was not done cheaply. It's well crafted and attached solidly. It's also something that is not unheard of with these rifles.

If this was the last 1911 on Earth and I was dead set on only historical accuracy, I would be pissed. However, the more I think about it, I think this actually will turn out to be a heck of a deal. Many say the full accuracy of these rifles starts to be realized when adding optics. I have maybe $100 worth of gunsmithing already done for me.

Adding a period-appropriate scope or diopter set may indeed result in having a fairly unique rifle that is still true to the long and proud heritage of Swiss civilian marksmanship. Better yet, I could have a rifle that is a legitimate 600+ yard shooter.

Gotta love those milsurps, huh?

 

[Melnic]

It's attached with what look like torx bolts

Those look like Hex to me.

 

[Augie]

How about a pic of the front sight?

 

[Machodoc]

Agree w. Augie that it probably had a diopter sight mounted as that rail is too far back for anything but a short tube scope.

Here you go,
http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/1054#.VNNd5ilDE20

This is why I love this group! If I had that rifle, and could find the correct diopter sight for reasonable $$, I wouldn't be at all unhappy ... just buy another one.