Non-resident Designated Collector

[aberforth]

Hey all, does anyone know if the MSP will process a Designated Collector application for a non-resident? I didn't see anything in the law that authorizes the MSP to designate collectors that would prevent it, but we all know how the MSP like to make things up as they go along.

I'm currently a MD resident but I'm in the process of moving to PA (contract done with a settlement date set, just jumping through all the hoops for closing). Realistically there's no way I'd get a response from the MSP before my closing date in PA (especially with the intervening holidays), so I was curious if any of our non-resident members had any experience with this.

It may not seem like being an MDC is of much use to an out-of-stater, but I can foresee cases (organizing an informal shoot with my MD buddies that fails to go off due to last-minute weather or wife-bitching) where I would be on the road in MD with a stack of handguns, on my way to something that was originally supposed to be a shoot and instead turns into a "private exhibition....of....part of [my] collection", and I'd like to be legally covered in such a scenario. Yes I realize the probability of this being an issue is minuscule at best, and yes I realize I could just circumvent the whole thing and get a C&R (which I will do at some point in the future), but right now I'm just interested in the MDC.

Any thoughts?

 

[Inigoes]

COMAR 29.03.01.04

Nothing in the rules, states you have to be a resident.

 

[aberforth]

COMAR 29.03.01.04

Nothing in the rules, states you have to be a resident.

Yeah, that's what I thought, but I was wondering if anyone had an anecdotes or experience on the matter.

 

[Fester60]

I am a designated collector but I have always lived in MD. I suppose you could submit the paperwork now, you will be approved and added to the list. They just send you a simple letter saying you got approved, no formal certificate. So you will end up on the list even after you move to PA. I doubt they check the list periodically to erase people who have moved.

 

[Inigoes]

Yeah, that's what I thought, but I was wondering if anyone had an anecdotes or experience on the matter.

I am a designated collector but I have always lived in MD. I suppose you could submit the paperwork now, you will be approved and added to the list. They just send you a simple letter saying you got approved, no formal certificate. So you will end up on the list even after you move to PA. I doubt they check the list periodically to erase people who have moved.

The MSP has been complaining about lack of funding, along with the MSP stating that you must purchase more than one regulated firearm before they will "allow" you to have the DC status.

Hopefully that has been corrected.

 

[aberforth]

The MSP has been complaining about lack of funding, along with the MSP stating that you must purchase more than one regulated firearm before they will "allow" you to have the DC status.

I've also heard this trash coming from them, not that I'd be in a position to do anything about it, as I've made several regulated purchases already.

 

[Squaregrouper]

Get The C&R and be glad you are leaving the People's Republic Of Maryland.

 

[jkray]

I can tell you that the crap about having to purchase is still being used as my application was put on hold due to a lack of purchases. All of my guns were bought when I lived in Maine so even though I asked the question and pointed out their own rules im still on hold untill I can get enough money put together to buy a regulated gun.

 

[boule]

Yeah, that's what I thought, but I was wondering if anyone had an anecdotes or experience on the matter.

Yes, works for both - designated collector and C&R........ don't tell me that you don't have the second one yet!

 

[Threeband]

Why not take a Labrador Retriever along, and claim you're going to a dog obedience class?


The only reason for the existence of the Designated Collector status is to allow Marylanders to purchase more than one regulated firearm a month. It has nothing to do with transporting firearms.

Maryland law does have that phrase legitimizing the transport of handguns by "bona fide collectors" going to or from a "public or private exibition". (Quotations from memory, caveat lesor.) It does not define "bona fide collector".

"Bona Fide Collector" is going to be determined on a case-by-case basis, by the presentation of sound arguments establishing not only your status as a genuine collector, but the legitimacy of the private exibition you claim you were going to. Bona Fide means Good Faith. The court will want to see evidence that you were acting in Good Faith. If it appears that you were trying to "game the system" I doubt it will go well for you.

Whether or not you are a bona fide collector is a matter for your lawyer to argue before the judge. Your lawyer will base his argument on the strongest ground he can find. I think a Federal Collector's License (03 FFL, C&R) would strengthen your case. A Designated Collector's letter couldn't hurt, but I seriously doubt it would help much, even if you could get one. (A non-resident would have no need of one- can't buy regulated firearms in MD- it's only purpose.)

On the other hand, a court of law may determine that you are indeed a bona fide collector even if you have neither a C&R license nor a Designated Collector letter.

Indeed I suspect your lawyer would need more than either. If I were a prosecutor looking to nail your ass, I would demand evidence of genuine collecting activity, and recognition as a collector by other collectors. "Tell me about your client's collecting activity." "Tell me about this so called 'private exibition' your client claims he was going to." "Was your client transporting display cases, tables, anything to facilitate his exibition?" "I notice your client was transporting 400 rounds of ammunition. Isn't ammunition normally prohibited at an exibition?"

I'm really sorry to bust anyone's bubble, but if any of us goes before an anti-gun Maryland judge and tries to argue, "I was going to stop by my friend Joe's house and show him my new Glock. I have this letter that says I'm a Designated Collector, and Joe's house is a private exibition." ... well, I don't think it will work.

Designated Collector status is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. It doesn't automatically make you a Bona Fide Collector, whatever the hell that is.

... but I can foresee cases (organizing an informal shoot with my MD buddies that fails to go off due to last-minute weather or wife-bitching) where I would be on the road in MD with a stack of handguns, on my way to something that was originally supposed to be a shoot and instead turns into a "private exhibition....of....part of [my] collection", and I'd like to be legally covered in such a scenario.

No matter what your defense is, you're best letting your lawyer make the argument. In this case, I think your best defense is the simple truth. You are on your way to or from informal target practice. Perfectly straightforward. You have your range bag, targets, 400 rounds of ammunition, and related equipment to back up your claim. You can explain where you were going to shoot ("In back of Joe's barn" could be perfectly acceptable, if Joe's pasture is a safe shooting area.)

I see no problem with that. You can make a very, very strong argument that you are indeed a Bona Fide target shooter, going to or from bona fide informal target practice. You can present evidence to that effect. You are an honest upstanding citizen with a clean record. You are not trying to "game the system," with some silly contrived clap trap about a "Designated Collector" letter.

Just be honest. Tell the truth. Heck, if you're up front about it, the cop-on-the-side-of-the-road might even send you on your way with a smile and a wave. He might talk your ear off for five minutes about guns. But if you come across like you're trying to put something over on him, he's likely to run you in and let the judge decide.


Don't be this guy:

I was like cruisin' throo Rockville las' week 'n got pulled over by a Montgomery County cop (53 in a school zone,like, wuzzup wid dat?) 'n when ma Lorcin slid out frum unnera seat, like, he went all DEFCON 5 on me like, 'n I'm like Chill Dood, jus' chill! cuz I got this letter sez I'm A Maryland Designated Collector transporting all or part of my collection to a public or private exibition, n he's like whoa Dude I didn't know, man Thanx for clearing that up for me I never knew that about the law Thanx man sorry I almost shot u I'm glad u set me straight 'n he turned out to be a pretty cool dude 'n he let me off sorta















'ceptin he gimme 750 dollar ticket 'n 4 points like wuzzup wid dat MoFo MoCo...

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=1077186&postcount=167

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[aberforth]

The only reason for the existence of the Designated Collector status is to allow Marylanders to purchase more than one regulated firearm a month. It has nothing to do with transporting firearms.

Interesting. I know that the portion of the law that defines designated collectors is under the "Multiple Purchase of Regulated Firearms" heading, but I haven't seen anything in law or regulatory opinion that stated that that was the only case where the status applied. I was under the impression that while defined and authorized under that heading, the designation (once granted) stood independent of the heading. (Similar to the way in which the prohibition on loaded firearms is under the hunting code, but applies whether or not the accused is actively engaged in hunting activities.)

Maryland law does have that phrase legitimizing the transport of handguns by "bona fide collectors" going to or from a "public or private exibition". (Quotations from memory, caveat lesor.) It does not define "bona fide collector".

"Bona Fide Collector" is going to be determined on a case-by-case basis, by the presentation of sound arguments establishing not only your status as a genuine collector, but the legitimacy of the private exibition you claim you were going to. Bona Fide means Good Faith. The court will want to see evidence that you were acting in Good Faith. If it appears that you were trying to "game the system" I doubt it will go well for you.

Whether or not you are a bona fide collector is a matter for your lawyer to argue before the judge. Your lawyer will base his argument on the strongest ground he can find. I think a Federal Collector's License (03 FFL, C&R) would strengthen your case. A Designated Collector's letter couldn't hurt, but I seriously doubt it would help much, even if you could get one. (A non-resident would have no need of one- can't buy regulated firearms in MD- it's only purpose.)

On the other hand, a court of law may determine that you are indeed a bona fide collector even if you have neither a C&R license nor a Designated Collector letter.

In short, yes. My non-lawyer understanding was that bona fide was being used to refer to the "bona fides" (credentials) of the accused. That said a judge could very well take "bona fide" literally, in which case the designation would not necessarily be enough, but would demonstrate that you had made a good faith effort to have your collecting activities recognized *prior* to being accused of an offense. As you say, unless the judge is going to ignore the law entirely (in which case you are just boned no matter how you slice it) being an MDC can't hurt.

Indeed I suspect your lawyer would need more than either. If I were a prosecutor looking to nail your ass, I would demand evidence of genuine collecting activity, and recognition as a collector by other collectors. "Tell me about your client's collecting activity." "Tell me about this so called 'private exibition' your client claims he was going to." "Was your client transporting display cases, tables, anything to facilitate his exibition?" "I notice your client was transporting 400 rounds of ammunition. Isn't ammunition normally prohibited at an exibition?"

I'm really sorry to bust anyone's bubble, but if any of us goes before an anti-gun Maryland judge and tries to argue, "I was going to stop by my friend Joe's house and show him my new Glock. I have this letter that says I'm a Designated Collector, and Joe's house is a private exibition." ... well, I don't think it will work.

Designated Collector status is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. It doesn't automatically make you a Bona Fide Collector, whatever the hell that is.

The legal cuteness that would be entailed here would likely hinge on how legally technically minded your judge/jury was, and how easily amused they were. Since the law specifically speaks of "informal exhibitions" I a good defense attorney should be able to smack that line of perverse reasoning down. Also, the ammunition in that case would be circumstantial at best as there is no generalized prohibition on the transport of ammunition.

Also I hate Glocks

No matter what your defense is, you're best letting your lawyer make the argument. In this case, I think your best defense is the simple truth. You are on your way to or from informal target practice. Perfectly straightforward. You have your range bag, targets, 400 rounds of ammunition, and related equipment to back up your claim. You can explain where you were going to shoot ("In back of Joe's barn" could be perfectly acceptable, if Joe's pasture is a safe shooting area.)

I see no problem with that. You can make a very, very strong argument that you are indeed a Bona Fide target shooter, going to or from bona fide informal target practice. You can present evidence to that effect. You are an honest upstanding citizen with a clean record. You are not trying to "game the system," with some silly contrived clap trap about a "Designated Collector" letter.

Just be honest. Tell the truth. Heck, if you're up front about it, the cop-on-the-side-of-the-road might even send you on your way with a smile and a wave. He might talk your ear off for five minutes about guns. But if you come across like you're trying to put something over on him, he's likely to run you in and let the judge decide.

Sure. The MDC isn't an argument for the cop (although it may be worth mentioning depending on the demeanor of the conversation), its an argument for the judge/jury. Most cops aren't in the business of busting your balls for dumb stuff, and most don't like to screw you for an honest mistake, so by explaining the truth to the officer you will likely avoid dealing with the MDC issue at all. That said, if you run into a jackass, you are going to jail even if you have a court order for the transport of the weapons, so MDC or no really doesn't matter until you go to court. Once there your attorney can present both arguments (informal target shoot canceled by external factors and MDC), and let the judge decide which alternative explanation of innocence is worth evaluating.

Don't be this guy:

<snipped for brevity>


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Of course not


ETA: I just realized I gave a line-by-line rebuttal of your comments. Sorry, I wasn't try to be a jackass, that's just my forensics background slipping through.

 

[aberforth]

Yes, works for both

Yes as in they will grant to non-residents?

designated collector and C&R........ don't tell me that you don't have the second one yet!

I'm trying to be a *very hard* good boy and not spend *all* my money. A C&R would be counter-productive to that goal (as someone on this forum [yellowsled?] said, cocaine is less addictive).

 

[Threeband]

If you're going target shooting, whether at a fancy range or out behind Joe's barn, that's good enough.

You don't need no stinking MDC letter.

Can't hurt to bring along the Labrador Retriever, though.

 

[Jerry M]

If you move PA and become a PA resident, you become subject to PA laws. Which as far as I know does not restrict the number of handguns you can buy at one time. If you are buying from someone in MD you have to go through an FFL (GC 1968). Again there are no limits on the number of handguns that one dealer sells another. Buy to your hearts content and max out all credit cards.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[boule]

Yes as in they will grant to non-residents?

Depends on whether you are a resident of another state or of another country. If you are the resident of another state, MD will still give you the letter but you are subject to your states law when buying said firearm. Thus, you could buy 2 regulated firearms in less than 60 days in MD anyways if your state allows it but why would you do that in MD anyways?

The only reason when a letter will be of help is when you have dwellings in MD and another state...

 

[Threeband]

...
ETA: I just realized I gave a line-by-line rebuttal of your comments. Sorry, I wasn't try to be a jackass, that's just my forensics background slipping through.

You didn't rebut me.

You agreed with me, line for line, at least 99%.

What do you think I was saying?


--------

I'm not gonna get a yes or a no huh?

The burden is on you because the exception is an affirmative defense to the broad ban on carrying otherwise imposed by 4-203. That means, by the way, that you have to introduce evidence supporting the defense at trial. While this often called a burden of proof, it is more properly viewed as the burden of going forward. The state then has the ultimate burden of proof of showing beyond a reasonable doubt that your claimed exception is made up or not true on the facts. See generally United States v. Laroche, 723 F.2d 1541, 1543 (11th Cir.1984).

There are no yes or no answers, only good arguments.

That is actually very true and quite a perceptive way of putting it! Of course, that is part of the reason that the courts are jammed with lawsuits -- no one really knows the law until some court makes definitive ruling on it.