Wyoming Bear Attack - Condition 3 Glock Useless

[MDHunter]

Given enough rounds fired and enough time for blood loss, any firearm will take a grizzly. You have to stop and ask yourself however, if they played dead instead of fighting back, would they have received less injuries in the attack? The answer is probably yes.

Played dead? Will you play dead, while your friend is being mauled? These guys were walking on a trail on Afognak Island, on their way to go hunting. The brownie flat out attacked out of the blue, no provocation, and no carcass nearby that the Coast Guard or anyone else was able to locate. The bear appeared out of nowhere and attacked one guy; his friend's quick and decisive response with the 10mm saved his life, although he does have some serious injuries to heal. The only way the one hunter would have sustained less injuries, is if he wasn't on the island.

Grizzlies attack to eliminate a threat. Once they see the threat is dead they stop the attack and leave. That's why you play dead for grizzlies. If you drop and play dead a grizzly may bite a few times to ensure you are dead, then they will leave you alone because they think you are already dead. Fight back against one and they will continue attacking until one of you, or both of you, dies. Those guys you mentioned made the attack worse by emptying a 10mm mag into the grizzly. A superior caliber would have ended the confrontation sooner, and simply playing dead would most likely have been the very best option for reducing the injuries sustained in the attack.

So the grizzly that killed the elderly couple that were sleeping in their tent along a river in the Brooks Range a few years ago, considered them a threat while they were in their sleeping bags, in their tent?

You seem to be certain about what would have happened, if the guys on Afognak had a "superior caliber." What about the brown bears and grizzlies that take multiple rounds in the vitals from a .338, .375, or larger, and see fit not to die right away?

Herrero's research is a great resource, but you seem excessively vested in treating the generalizations about bear behavior as gospel. When dealing with grizzlies or brown bears, assuming that the next one you meet, may act differently than any bear you have encountered before, might serve better.

 

[MDHunter]

Just because an Alaskan guide with over 100 brown, grizzly, and black bear kills to his credit sees fit to carry a 10mm when he is guiding bear hunters doesn't mean that the 10mm is perfectly acceptable and capable for grizzly and brown bear defense. In my mind it makes that guy an idiot and I'm sure most Alaskans would agree. He's responsible for the safety of his clients in the field and is being negligent by relying on a 10mm in Alaskan brown bear territory, IMHO.

So now in addition to knowing how all bears behave, you are claiming to know what all Alaskans think? Tell you what - how about if we'll take a poll of all those people that know (or know of) this guide. You give me $100 for every Alaskan that knows him and doesn't think he's an idiot, and I'll give you $100 for every Alaskan that knows him, and thinks he is an idiot. I could use a little extra funds towards my next Alaskan hunt; if we actually did this bet, I could probably afford 1 or 2 DIY flyout hunts.

And to clarify - I don't recall ever "insisting" that a 10mm is the ideal round for bear defense; I just stated that several bears have died from hunters using that round in recent years. The only ideal round for bear defense is probably a bazooka, and I don't think we are allowed to carry them in the woods.

 

[CrazySanMan]

Played dead? Will you play dead, while your friend is being mauled? These guys were walking on a trail on Afognak Island, on their way to go hunting. The brownie flat out attacked out of the blue, no provocation, and no carcass nearby that the Coast Guard or anyone else was able to locate. The bear appeared out of nowhere and attacked one guy; his friend's quick and decisive response with the 10mm saved his life, although he does have some serious injuries to heal. The only way the one hunter would have sustained less injuries, is if he wasn't on the island.

Had they dropped and played dead the attack wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. If they had a superior caliber weapon the attack wouldn't have lasted as long as it did.

Being in bear country, and especially big bear country, requires a completely different mindset and way of doing things than a simple walk around the block. Bear will charge at any moment and with no warning like this one did. Just like drilling for concealed carry draws and encounters, you need to know ahead of time and practice what to do when a bear charges. If I'm in grizzly country and the bear is charging from a distance my first action will be to climb a tree or get up or down a rock ledge where the bear can't follow. If the bear is at mid range I'll draw and shoot, then play dead. At close range I'll play dead. If I'm with another person, we both play dead, and the bear begins to maul the other person I'll jump up and begin shooting if playing dead doesn't work. I've thought about this over and over and feel confident knowing I would react this way.

If I'm in Maryland or Colorado or WV or anywhere in black bear country I'll stand my ground, upright and tall, and yell at the bear to convince it that I'm not worth the trouble. I've done this countless times and have videos of some of my black bear encounters on my WeHikedIt.com website that show me standing my ground against some big black bears.

So the grizzly that killed the elderly couple that were sleeping in their tent along a river in the Brooks Range a few years ago, considered them a threat while they were in their sleeping bags, in their tent?

Yes, it did. To a grizzly any human within 400 yards is a threat. What happens most often in bear attacks when someone is in a tent is this:

The campers had something that smelled. One of them spilled a bit of dinner on their shirt when eating, wiped their hands on their pants, forgot about a power bar wrapper in their pants pocket that they ate when hiking earlier that day, had mint toothpaste or a fragrant deodorant in the tent with them, the woman was menstrating, etc. Something drew the bear to the tent. The bear entered the tent expecting to find food and instead found itself in a closed area with two humans at point blank range. It instinctively attacked and then once the people started to fight back it continued the attack.

You can burn your food scraps, bury them a foot under the ashes of your campfire, and a bear will still smell them and dig them up.

You seem to be certain about what would have happened, if the guys on Afognak had a "superior caliber." What about the brown bears and grizzlies that take multiple rounds in the vitals from a .338, .375, or larger, and see fit not to die right away?

Exactly. This is why 10mm is dangerous to carry. My 454 Casull isn't a magic weapon against grizzly, it's barely adequate and it's possible that I could empty the gun into a grizzly and not stop it from continuing to attack.

Herrero's research is a great resource, but you seem excessively vested in treating the generalizations about bear behavior as gospel. When dealing with grizzlies or brown bears, assuming that the next one you meet, may act differently than any bear you have encountered before, might serve better.

If you read my first post in this thread you'll see I mentioned this bear showed three red flags - it was acting abnormally aggressive, it was at a food source, and it had a cub with it. This bear wasn't going to stop the attack until something was dead. The second guy grabbed the Glock but couldn't make it fire. If he shot the bear with it both guys would likely be dead because the bear would have attacked the second guy then continued mauling the first. The second guy couldn't make the gun fire, but let's assume he did. He's obviously either very unknowledgeable about handguns, or he was scared with adrenaline pumping and had reduced motor skills. Either way his shots at the bear would not have been accurate. Several would have likely missed the bear. He may have even shot the first guy.

If the guide had kept the Glock on his body and had a round in the chamber he may have been able to shoot the bear enough times when it was mauling him to end the attack. I believe that was the OP's initial point in posting this.

If the guide had a double action revolver - 44 mag, 45 LC, 454 Casull, 460 Ruger, etc - the second guy would have been able to operate the handgun and shoot the bear and with a heavier caliber would have a better chance to end the attack before the first guy was killed.

Remember the article says the second guy retrieved the Glock but couldn't make it fire. That's a huge reason why so many experts and common knowledge recommends a heavy caliber revolver for grizzly and brown bear defense. All you have to do is pull the trigger - there is no slide to operate, no safety to disengage (I realize the Glock doesn't have a safety switch that needs to be flipped), no stovepipes or failures to feed. My wife doesn't like handguns and refuses to learn to shoot one, but I know in an emergency even she can pick up a revolver and make it go bang.

 

[Occam]

Davy Crockett weeps.

Exactly. He kilt him a bar when he was only three.

 

[traveller]

These dick length comparisons about bear-guns are rather entertaining.







This guide got mauled because he had NO gun when it counted. After that, the discussion the gun he didn't have should have had is rather idle.

 

[HeatSeeker]

That wasn’t even Condition 3, that was Condition Stupid for leaving the gun in a pack instead of on his hip.

Also, it takes a special kind of stupid to be field dressing any elk or deer in bear country unarmed..

They should have had a shotgun or a rifle with them. Maybe gone to 50-50 security, one on the gun while the other worked on the carcass.

I have no sympathy for the deceased or the survivor. Both earned their Darwin Award.

Did you even read the entire story? A bit harsh, no? You might want to edit your post.

 

[Blaster229]

I don't have a problem with carrying a Glock in condition one in a proper holster that covers the trigger. It is the initial holstering of a condition one Glock that just gives me the willies. The trigger doesn't care if it it is pressed by a finger - or a strap or a fold of shirt. I hope I never get over that extra dose of caution.

I hate hate hate this. Take your safe, empty striker fired pistol and TRY to get the trigger to break with something other than a finger. Practice and play around with scenarios like having that wind breaker string in your holster and place the pistol in it. Stuff like that. It's not that "dangerous".
Get confidence with yourself and your weapons.

 

[platoonDaddy]

I don't have a problem with carrying a Glock in condition one in a proper holster that covers the trigger. It is the initial holstering of a condition one Glock that just gives me the willies. The trigger doesn't care if it it is pressed by a finger - or a strap or a fold of shirt. I hope I never get over that extra dose of caution.

Take a self-defensive handgun class were you are re-holstering NUMEROUS times during drills. Some of the drills has you re-holstering after every few rounds.

 

[Seabee]

That wasn’t even Condition 3, that was Condition Stupid for leaving the gun in a pack instead of on his hip.

Also, it takes a special kind of stupid to be field dressing any elk or deer in bear country unarmed..

They should have had a shotgun or a rifle with them. Maybe gone to 50-50 security, one on the gun while the other worked on the carcass.

I have no sympathy for the deceased or the survivor. Both earned their Darwin Award.

How true. In western MD a few years ago, I had taken a buck with a bow. Just as I finished field dressing it, I heard footsteps thinking a man was walking thru the woods. I looked up to see a large black bear walking directly at me about 35 yds away. I looked over at my bow leaning against a tree and started yelling at the bear. Luckily, he ran off. While loading the deer into my truck, ANOTHER bear walked around the cabin but didnt smell the deer. I never again went to the woods in any season unarmed.
Another time, I went out in early muzzleloader and was walking to a stand in the dark when I heard something and stopped. Heard a noise in the big oak 3 ft from me and shined my light up and a young black bear was hanging on the side of the tree looking at me. Guess I scared him up the tree. My first thought was, I only have 1 shot in this thing and slowly back off and went around him to the stand. he wandered around there for a couple hrs before leaving.
There have been other bear encounters but none that close for me. Always open carry in bear country. Carry laws are against you but its your life. MD needs to recognize this

 

[Moorvogi]

Yes you can. Wyoming says "a firearm"

Howard county maryland would allow you to carry a spit wad and straw as a gun... no joke.. hahah. they went a little overboard w/ the regulation/rules.

 

[MDHunter]

There have been other bear encounters but none that close for me. Always open carry in bear country. Carry laws are against you but its your life. MD needs to recognize this

Bowhunters in Garrett and Allegheny Counties can carry a pistol when bowhunting to protect themselves in the event of a bear encounter. We need to get DNR or whomever to expand this to all counties where bear hunting is allowed (Frederick and Washington counties). All counties in MD would be even better, but at a minimum if you can hunt bear in that country, you should be able to legally open carry during deer season.

 

[Racer Doug14]

From the threads today

Bear 1 Human 1

A family member of mine hit a doe last week in PA said his head was where his ass was and assumed it as good as dead.. He began to slit it’s throat, then it sprang up and ran off into the woods

Looks like this gentleman had a similar but worse experience. Might need a “when animals attack” thread

Holy crap! No Shit lucky!

 

[CZ TAIJI]

From the threads today

Bear 1 Human 1

A family member of mine hit a doe last week in PA said his head was where his ass was and assumed it as good as dead.. He began to slit it’s throat, then it sprang up and ran off into the woods

Looks like this gentleman had a similar but worse experience. Might need a “when animals attack” thread

i always cheer for the animal who's at a horrible disadvantage.

 

[MDEXPAT]

I don't want to Monday morning quarterback this guides fatal mistake. They say he was experienced. Yet once again its proven that one momentary lapse in judgement can cost you your life and potentially the lives of others as well.

If you're going into any part of the wild where you are no longer at the top of the food chain, but potentially ending up on the menu, your weapon never leaves your side or any other place you are carrying it on your person. That the guide took his firearm off wasn't his first mistake. I'm sorry to say it, but his fate was sealed when the person he was guiding not only didn't know the ins-and-outs of the guides Glock, but that the guide didn't ensure the customer was familiar w/ how the Glock functions including firing a number of rounds to ensure he could hit a target w/ it. Not to mention getting the pistol out of the guides chest holster in an emergency in the event the guide became incapacitated and where additional magazines could be found.

Not to add to the "whizzing" about "bear stoppers", but the only "stopper" that works is the one that stops the threat. It may not stop every threat, but every situation is different and regardless of what you carry/ employ when the dookie strikes the air oscillator, if you are going to shoot you "shoot to compliance". If that requires a reload before continuing then so be it. Once you pull the trigger you might as well plan on pulling it till whatever you want dead is dead, or you are.

As the saying goes, "Only hits count" and that means the only way a "stopper" stops anything is with proper shot placement. Rounds don't always expand. Rounds don't always hit vitals. Rounds don't always stop in the threat. Once you let that shot fly you know longer have say in the matter. I would respectfully add that whatever caliber a person utilized to keep from becoming tender bear vittles, obviously worked. Rather than crap on or argue about it, maybe look more into the caliber and know that on at least one occasion it was sufficient to save a life?

The .380 ACP is the absolute bare minimum cartridge for personal defense and often regulated to being a last ditch back-up piece. I don't own one. I wouldn't recommend it seeing as there are better options. But I've seen a photo of someone who engaged in late-night scrap metal collecting and managed to catch a single piece of .380 junk metal to the chest. He was laying on a stretcher w/ his mouth wide open and one of his lungs avulsed and forced up into his throat sticking out of his mouth. That being said, if all I had was a .380 w/ in arms reach I wouldn't squabble about its effectiveness. I'd put it to use and hope for the best.

Let's not engage in pissing contests. In the end, everyone walks away with wet shoes.

 

[eruby]

..... Let's not engage in pissing contests. In the end, everyone walks away with wet shoes.

That's what MDS does.

If you post "it's day", several will post "it's night", or at least challenge what is meant by day.

If you've never seen it, search 'bear kayak' on youtube.

 

[Racer Doug14]

After reading the two articles on this. My opinion is that the guide had a moment of complacency. Compounding the problem is that his client should have been armed also.

 

[traveller]

That's what MDS does.

If you post "it's day", several will post "it's night", or at least challenge what is meant by day.

If you've never seen it, search 'bear kayak' on youtube.

I like apples.

 

[Bullfrog]

That's what MDS does.

If you post "it's day", several will post "it's night", or at least challenge what is meant by day.

If you've never seen it, search 'bear kayak' on youtube.

And another type of commonly repeated MDSism, ignore the question and answer the one you want to answer.

Op: "I want to stick with 30.06."
2nd reply: "If you're willing to change calibers, "
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=229942

 

[rbird7282]

That's what MDS does.



If you post "it's day", several will post "it's night", or at least challenge what is meant by day.



If you've never seen it, search 'bear kayak' on youtube.

It’s day? Are you sure it’s day? Maybe the sun was faked by the government. After all, how do we know the sun is real?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alan3413]

It’s day? Are you sure it’s day? Maybe the sun was faked by the government. After all, how do we know the sun is real?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's no day or night as we know it. We're actually all in a computer simulation. In reality, we're all plugged into a central AI while sleeping in a vat of goo.