www.handgunlaw.us Needs Your Assistance

[Gary Slider]

www.handgunlaw.us is in the process of adding an image of each states permit/license to each states respective page at www.handgunlaw.us

I have built up the attached JPEG of the Maryland Permit to Carry.
The images I used had all the important information blacked out.

What I am needing to know is What is contained in the area on the left side of the Permit Image and how is that info laid out. I believe there is a Photo and the permittee signature is at the bottom left. Is this correct? How tall is the photo and is there anything above it?

Also
What is the color of each entry?
Is Race Just a W or B etc or spelled out?
Is sex M or F or spelled out
Is Height listed as 5'10" or 5-10 etc ect
Is license # larger font How is is laid out A22348 or 334456 and how many numbers and letters does it have.

Expires - is it 2/3/12 or 02/03/12 or 02/03/2012 or are there - and not /

The state seal was the hardest thing and it is not quit correct but it is the best I can do with my limited computer skills and software.

I am wanting to have as many states covered by 1/1/11 as that is when all state pages must be updated to show the change in Iowa Shall Issue law and honoring all other states permit/licenses. But any help you could give Handgunlaw.us on making the Maryland Permit as good as possible would be greatly appreciated.

If you don't want to post any items from your permit or let people know you have one you can email me the info at admins@handgunlaw.us Please put Maryland in the Subject line. I get a ton of spam at that email address and would hate to miss your email. Thank you all and

 

[Gary Slider]

Thank you. I got the info I needed in a PM. Thank you to the man who sent me the info. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Markp]

Gary,

I have some questions about the MD faqs you have listed. You state that a regulated firearm must be unloaded, cased, with no ammunition accessible. You state your source for this as the Maryland State Police.

Not all regulated firearms are handguns and thus not subject to being required to be in an enclosed case. For instance, there is no requirement to place a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle in an enclosed case, but a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle is clearly a regulated firearm per §5-101(p)

Further, the law does not state that the ammunition cannot be accessible, but only that the weapon be not loaded and encased in the case of a handgun, or other weapon treated as a handgun (per §4-203 of the MD state code) such as a short-barreled rifle.

While I respect that you've gone to a great deal of trouble to compile this, you should not being using the Maryland State Police as a source as they clearly do not know the laws they are enforcing if they are giving you this information.

I would suggest that until the Maryland State Police supports their assertions with citations of the Maryland State Code that these interpretations may be incorrect and potentially will cause confusion at a later date with the public at large. Further, these are legal questions which should be answered by the Attorney General's office and not the Maryland State Police.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Gary Slider]

Markp,

If you look at Handgunlaw.us the MD page you will see the question you are talking about. If you look lower in the RV/Car Carry Section you will also see a direct link to MD code 4-203

I put it there as you are not the first person to bring this up. But I am not an Attorney. I can't but what I believe the law says. I have to report the laws and the Legislature has written them. If the AG makes an opinion on them and What the police are saying about them. I have seen many instances where the police go beyond the law. But It will take the courts or the AG to straighten them out. In the mean time I have to report how they are stating they will enforce the law even if I don't agree with it. It is a tough call.

I wish I had all the answers. No one does and thre will be court cases forever and that Case Law is what lightens up the gray areas.

 

[OLM-Medic]

Yep, Markp is right.

 

[E.Shell]

Gary, I too appreciate the work you're doing here.

We all endure this nightmarish maze of laws here, that even the state police don't fully understand. It is quite common to get wrong answers from MSP on gun topics, and if you call another barracks, or the same one at a different time, you'll get a different answer. For many of us, it has been well worth the effort required to find out what the law really is, and we just don't ask MSP questions on the phone. They're not accountable, and very often usually just don't know.

I fully understand that police have a LOT more to do than to try to understand the nuances of one small section of code, and we really don't expect a lot from them on this. In our own defense, we do our best to learn what the law actually is. There are very few "grey areas".

I carry several papers that prove gross misconceptions like the popular belief that it is unlawful to carry loaded magazines in the state of MD. That would be fun, you call MSP and let them tell you you'll go to jail for a loaded mag (some cops say it's the same as a loaded gun), and I'll produce a letter from the Deputy AG that says "there is nothing in the law....". I carry this letter with my loaded mags.

It is often that we will debunk things people come to believe is actually the law (like the 3" knife blade rule that doesn't exist). We go around and around about these stupid regulated firearms and requirements too, and may at some point get it across to the masses. For you to post stuff related to this that clearly not in the law is kind of frustrating for those of us who would like to see the facts posted and it sets us back. "Oh, I was just on another website and they said......". Great.

For clarity at your site, I would suggest and appreciate it if you would STRONGLY differentiate between what is written in the law, and what some random clerk told you when you called our state police.

 

[Walter]

Mark,

I agree with you that he should not simply cite "From the MD State Police" but should rather find a more proper source.

However, if your issue is the general public:

...potentially will cause confusion at a later date with the public at large.

Then I think it would be best left saying a regulated firearm (or any firearm in MD) should be transported unloaded, cased, without ammunition being accessible.



Why?


Maryland simply is not gun friendly. If you get pulled over and they find an AK (or any firearm, regulated or not) not encased, with some ammunition right next to it, then you are going to be in big trouble. You will be harassed, arrested, and your guns will be confiscated. Sure you might eventually be able to beat the case on legal grounds, but is it worth all the time, money, and hassle?

Not all regulated firearms are handguns and thus not subject to being required to be in an enclosed case. For instance, there is no requirement to place a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle in an enclosed case, but a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle is clearly a regulated firearm per §5-101(p)

Further, the law does not state that the ammunition cannot be accessible, but only that the weapon be not loaded and encased in the case of a handgun, or other weapon treated as a handgun (per §4-203 of the MD state code) such as a short-barreled rifle.

Edit: I've read E.Shell's post and I also see the other side of the coin. Some people, such as those of us on these forums, would like to see what the law actually says. In that regard, Gary should differentiate between what the written law says, but at the same time also strongly suggest what people should actually do if they want to avoid any hassles. Like I said, sure you could legally transport an AK with some ammo right next to it, but it's simply not the best/smartest thing to do. I'm sure all of us here agree with that.

 

[E.Shell]

You're right about that Walter, but please don't encourage misquoting the law to protect us from ourselves.

The law says it's not necessary, no...wait..., lets look at this correctly: NO LAW says that it IS necessary, so it's clearly not required. If common sense dictates encasing the firearm, and it does, then it's a damn good idea of course, but it's still NOT THE LAW.

 

[Walter]

You're right about that Walter, but please don't encourage misquoting the law to protect us from ourselves.

The law says it's not necessary, no...wait..., lets look at this correctly: NO LAW says that it IS necessary, so it's clearly not required. If common sense dictates encasing the firearm, and it does, then it's a damn good idea of course, but it's still NOT THE LAW.

I gotcha E.Shell! I edited my post to reflect that

 

[Gary Slider]

I didn't call the MD State Police. I have never had the opportunity to talk to them. They have it posted on their Website.
http://www.mdsp.org/downloads/Licensing_Faq.pdf

That is the info they are putting out to the world. What is on Handgunlaw.us is a cut and paste from the MD State Police Website. If I put something else then I will get emails saying that the MD State Police Website doesn't say that. I give links to the law and give what the AG and Those in Authority are saying to the public about their firearm laws



As for the Loaded mags the AG's opinion for that is on the MD page.

 

[DD214]

Gary,

You are missing the point (not your fault, MD code is confusing and our overlords would make Stalin proud). You are confusing "handgun" for "regulated". While all handguns are regulated (barring C&R), not all regulated firearms are handguns. The PDF that you cite deals ONLY with handguns.

 

[Jim Sr]

Gary,

You are missing the point (not your fault, MD code is confusing and our overlords would make Stalin proud). You are confusing "handgun" for "regulated". While all handguns are regulated (barring C&R), not all regulated firearms are handguns. The PDF that you cite deals ONLY with handguns.

Antique handguns, are not "regulated," (or reproductions.)

 

[Markp]

Gary,

I do want to thank you for making the effort here again. I know your intent is to publish factual information and as others have noted, the laws in MD are not exactly the most coherent.

Many of us, to our own credit, can cite these laws chapter and verse verbatim and it is a sad state of affairs that we need to be able to... even on our best days it can be challenging for any of us to arrive at the right answer! We've spent a great deal of time wrestling with the language and nuances.

As has been noted, even law enforcement personnel have difficulties with these laws as they are so convoluted as to make little sense to even attorneys. If you are going to run a site like handgunlaw.us, it would really pay to find an attorney to either advise you. One would think that the law should be accessible and understandable to the layperson, but the sad reality is that it isn't.

Good luck with your site, it looks like a great resource... I hope that you can rely on MSI and other firearms groups to provide you with accurate information at the state level.

Mark

 

[Markp]

Maryland simply is not gun friendly. If you get pulled over and they find an AK (or any firearm, regulated or not) not encased, with some ammunition right next to it, then you are going to be in big trouble. You will be harassed, arrested, and your guns will be confiscated. Sure you might eventually be able to beat the case on legal grounds, but is it worth all the time, money, and hassle?

It's not about being able to 'beat' it, if I transport my rifles uncased (and I have some I simply cannot case for a variety of reasons) and I have a trunk full of magazines...

1. I should not be harassed... I didn't break any law.
2. I should not be arrested... I didn't break any law.
3. My guns should not be confiscated... I didn't break any law.

Should I pretend there are laws that don't exist. More to the point, Should law enforcement officers enforce laws they don't know or don't exist.

Do I wish to be a test case? Absolutely not, and I will transport my weapons in accordance to the the law.

However, if the law can simply be made up on the fly, why even bother following any of it??? If that's the case I should just start rolling with a .50 M2 HB machine gun, after all... if I am gonna be thrown in jail it might as well be for something really illegal.

Mark

 

[Walter]

Mark,

You are right. I would never want that to happen to any good citizen such as yourself. But remember this is MD

As you and others have said, the firearm laws here are really confusing. Because of that it should be of little surprise if a LEO thinks you're breaking one of them.

We've all heard some of the horror stories..like the guy who had a SWAT team come into his house in the middle of the night, and most recently the guy coming home from the range who was harassed and had his guns confiscated even though he broke no law.

It really sucks that I cant even be at peace when simply transporting my guns (I live in PG County ) between my two homes because of what could happen if I run into a LEO who doesn't know any better. I hate being treated like a criminal just because I have guns. I was almost mugged by 5 guys at an ATM a few weeks ago, and it makes my blood boil knowing that had things taken a turn for the worst I did not have the means to protect myself. MD sucks.

 

[md_rick_o]

Markp,

If you look at Handgunlaw.us the MD page you will see the question you are talking about. If you look lower in the RV/Car Carry Section you will also see a direct link to MD code 4-203

I put it there as you are not the first person to bring this up. But I am not an Attorney. I can't but what I believe the law says. I have to report the laws and the Legislature has written them. If the AG makes an opinion on them and What the police are saying about them. I have seen many instances where the police go beyond the law. But It will take the courts or the AG to straighten them out. In the mean time I have to report how they are stating they will enforce the law even if I don't agree with it. It is a tough call.

I wish I had all the answers. No one does and thre will be court cases forever and that Case Law is what lightens up the gray areas.

I really do appreciate the info on the site but it isn't accurate where you state the ammo has to be separate : from your pages maryland pdf

Q. Can I legally transport my regulated firearm to the range? (From the MD State Police)
A. Yes, provided the regulated firearm is unloaded, in an enclosed case or enclosed holster with no ammunition accessible.

From the MD State Police FAQ you stated you referenced:

The basic requirement during transport is the handgun must be unloaded
and in an enclosed case or enclosed holster with the ammunition separate AND you must be transporting the handgun to or from the locations listed
in statute.

From the Maryland Annotated code 4-203

(a) Prohibited.-
(1) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, a person may not:
(i) wear, carry, or transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, on or about the person;
(ii) wear, carry, or knowingly transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, in a vehicle traveling on a road or parking lot generally used by the public, highway, waterway, or airway of the State;
...
(b) Exceptions.- This section does not prohibit:
...
(3) the carrying of a handgun on the person or in a vehicle while the person is transporting the handgun to or from the place of legal purchase or sale, or to or from a bona fide repair shop, or between bona fide residences of the person, or between the bona fide residence and place of business of the person, if the business is operated and owned substantially by the person if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(4) the wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show, while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

Nowhere in the code is the ammunition specified as required to be separate. Not in the MDSP faq is is unaccessible just separate (ie not loaded).

Sorry for the length of this but i think the distinctions are important.

 

[Gary Slider]

What I have on Handgunlaw.us is straight from the MD State Police Website. I see what you are saying. But is their case law involved in what the MD SP are saying? I don't know. It is very difficult to search case law. But this is what the MD State Police are saying. So I put on Handgunlaw.us and tell people the law says you don't have to do this or do that and what the MD SP are saying is total garbage. Worse case I get someone arrested and they lose their right to own a gun forever. I won't do that.

If the MD SP are posting incorrect info then Gun Groups need to take them to task and make them correct it. Most likely it will take a court case and 10's of thousands of dollars if not 100's of thousands to get this little piece of the law straightened out.

Here is what the MD SP have posted on their FAQ Page.

Q. Can I legally transport my regulated firearm to the range?
A. Yes, however, Maryland and Federal laws require specific conditions be met while transporting a handgun. Please refer to Maryland Annotated Code, Criminal Law, Title 4, Section 203 for a detailed account of wearing, carrying, or transporting a handgun. You may access the Maryland General Assembly website at http://mlis.state.md.us/
You can access the Federal requirements through www.atf.gov and conduct a search for “27 Code of Federal Regulations, Part 178” and then look for “Transportation of Firearms.” The basic requirement during transport is the handgun must be unloaded
and in an enclosed case or enclosed holster with the ammunition separate
from the handgun AND you must be transporting the handgun to or from
the locations listed in the statute. Go to the following website for Criminal Law Title 4-203 regarding wearing, carrying or transporting a handgun: http://mlis.state.md.us/asp/statutes_Respond.asp?article=gcr&section=4-203&Extension=HTML

Q. Can I legally transport firearms interstate?
A. Yes, under Title 18, Section 926A, of the United States Code, a person
who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving
a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose
from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to
any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during
such transportation the firearm is unloaded, neither the firearm nor any
ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible
from the passenger compartment. In the case the vehicle does not have a
compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or
ammunition shall be contained in a locked compartment other than the
glove compartment or console.

 

[Inigoes]

What I have on Handgunlaw.us is straight from the MD State Police Website. I see what you are saying. But is their case law involved in what the MD SP are saying? I don't know. It is very difficult to search case law. But this is what the MD State Police are saying. So I put on Handgunlaw.us and tell people the law says you don't have to do this or do that and what the MD SP are saying is total garbage. Worse case I get someone arrested and they lose their right to own a gun forever. I won't do that.

If the MD SP are posting incorrect info then Gun Groups need to take them to task and make them correct it. Most likely it will take a court case and 10's of thousands of dollars if not 100's of thousands to get this little piece of the law straightened out.

Here is what the MD SP have posted on their FAQ Page.

Q. Can I legally transport my regulated firearm to the range?
A. Yes, however, Maryland and Federal laws require specific conditions be met while transporting a handgun. Please refer to Maryland Annotated Code, Criminal Law, Title 4, Section 203 for a detailed account of wearing, carrying, or transporting a handgun. You may access the Maryland General Assembly website at http://mlis.state.md.us/
You can access the Federal requirements through www.atf.gov and conduct a search for “27 Code of Federal Regulations, Part 178” and then look for “Transportation of Firearms.” The basic requirement during transport is the handgun must be unloaded
and in an enclosed case or enclosed holster with the ammunition separate
from the handgun AND you must be transporting the handgun to or from
the locations listed in the statute. Go to the following website for Criminal Law Title 4-203 regarding wearing, carrying or transporting a handgun: http://mlis.state.md.us/asp/statutes_Respond.asp?article=gcr&section=4-203&Extension=HTML

Q. Can I legally transport firearms interstate?
A. Yes, under Title 18, Section 926A, of the United States Code, a person
who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving
a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose
from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to
any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during
such transportation the firearm is unloaded, neither the firearm nor any
ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible
from the passenger compartment. In the case the vehicle does not have a
compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or
ammunition shall be contained in a locked compartment other than the
glove compartment or console.

Your first mistake is confusing in-state and interstate travel.

In-state only requires unloaded firearm in a holster or case.

When travelling between states then yes, it must be locked.

See how things get confusing real fast?

 

[Gary Slider]

Handgunlaw.us is reporting exactly what the MD State Police are reporting. You are saying the law states you don't have to have it cased if transporting it to the range. You Stated:

(Not all regulated firearms are handguns and thus not subject to being required to be in an enclosed case. For instance, there is no requirement to place a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle in an enclosed case, but a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle is clearly a regulated firearm per §5-101(p)

That is not what the MD State Police are saying. They are saying it must be cased or holstered. That is what Handgunlaw.us is reporting.

 

[DD214]

Handgunlaw.us is reporting exactly what the MD State Police are reporting. You are saying the law states you don't have to have it cased if transporting it to the range. You Stated:

(Not all regulated firearms are handguns and thus not subject to being required to be in an enclosed case. For instance, there is no requirement to place a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle in an enclosed case, but a semi-automatic Kalashnikov rifle is clearly a regulated firearm per §5-101(p)

That is not what the MD State Police are saying. They are saying it must be cased or holstered. That is what Handgunlaw.us is reporting.

No, they say that HANDGUNS must be cased, not "regulated" firearms in general. Reread their answer that you posted above. The question includes the word "regulated" but the answer is more specific and uses the term "handgun". That is because there is no law that a long gun has to be cased, even if it happens to be a regulated long gun. Only handguns are restricted in this manner.