Why COPS use .40: Q & A With a Cop

[joppaj]

Its odd to me how each county, town, and city has some one person (or committee) who selects a gun and caliber and how many come up with answers different from other departments with the exact same criteria. On top of that, you'd think that that particular decision making person (or committee) is pretty much the smartest guy in the room.

Worth recalling that budget plays a huge role. East Podunkia might really want whatever the FBI is carrying but on their budget they're getting Rugers.

 

[pbharvey]

Worth recalling that budget plays a huge role. East Podunkia might really want whatever the FBI is carrying but on their budget they're getting Rugers.

You'd think that a $500 Glock 17/19 would be a baseline for even small departments. Who wants their officers running around with $300 handguns?

 

[joppaj]

You'd think that a $500 Glock 17/19 would be a baseline for even small departments. Who wants their officers running around with $300 handguns?

It's worse than that. I imagine that a Dept pays less than $300 for a new Glock. I know of departments that were collecting old uniforms because they couldn't afford new ones.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

When Montgomery County transitioned from revolvers to self-loaders some years back, they did a test of a number of pistols. The pistol preferred by testers and by their point system was the Glock 17. When the request for bids was put out the winning bid was by Beretta. They could piggy back onto the MSP contract and also buy from a vendor within the state. The bid for the Beretta...pistols...leather...magazines...spare parts...everything...was only $2.50 less per officer than the Glock bid.

I have a copy of the MSP testing for a self-loading pistol from the 1980s. The Beretta was down the list of preferred pistols by the testing team...it scored somewhat less points than the others but ahead of the test issue revolver. The MSP chose the Beretta because there's a requirement that equipment must be purchased from a state supplier should there be one. They really had little choice,,,the test was really unnecessary and a waste of time.

Never underestimate the part budget dollars and politics plays in equipment selection. That can and does often overcome what was tested to be the most preferred.

 

[swinokur]

Wonder if Glock entertained any Mo Co officials at the Gentleman’s Clubs outside Atlanta?

 

[Eastern_Water_Moccasin]

I've carried duty handguns in both 9mm and .40 S&W and I would go with the .40 S&W any day of the week.

The difference in recoil between the two rounds is insignificant in my opinion. In my experience Police recruits who have trouble shooting a handgun in .40 S&W have trouble mastering the fundamentals for the following reasons:

a) the wrong mindset
b) failure to follow instructions
c) poor quality of instruction

A lot of new Officers have never used a firearm at any point in their life and they're either scared of the weapon or think they know it all. When they get out on the range the results are predictable. In some cases, performance suffers due to poor instructor quality but that's the exception rather than the rule. It boils down to a lack of determination and arrogance. My wife is tiny and she was able to successfully qualify with a Glock 22 during her Academy training. If she can do it, any able bodied person can. The argument that the .40 S&W is unfair to women and small framed men is BS. It's an excuse for poor recruits and/or poor instructors. The Glock 22 and similar pistols are not self propelled artillery pieces.

I've been involved in and/or responded to quite a few Police involved shootings. I've seen the results of the .40 S&W first hand. It's performance is exceptional, in all respects as good as can be expected from any non-exotic pistol caliber cartridge. Barrier penetration is excellent. For civilians, that may not be a consideration but for Police, your round has to reliably punch through car doors and auto glass. My particular agency ditched the Glock 17 for a number of reasons, one of which was because the Winchester Ranger ammunition it was using was failing to incapacitate suspects even with head shots. We had several instances where offenders were shot in the face at close range and were able to continue fighting. No such performance has been observed since the transition to 40 S&W. We see much the same result in criminal gunfights. Serious felons are carrying handguns chambered for .40 S&W and .45ACP. Do we see homicides where the victim was shot with a .380 or a 9mm? Yes but with Doctor Scalea and his team at Shock Trauma the numbers are steadily declining. Most of the victims I see hit with smaller cartridges are making it to the hospital and surviving. Those hit with the 40 S&W and .45ACP are being instantly incapacitated and dying where they fall. Shot placement is a factor but so is caliber. Far more victims who are shot in the head with .380s are surviving than victims shot in the head with .40s.

When I went from a 9mm to a .40 I was skeptical but I've come to love the round. I would hate to go back to 9mm.

That's all I've been trying to say to these folks. I've had 9mm pistols before and loved them, especially my HK P7M13 but I've even asked a MSP while we were both at The Armory in Annapolis and he told me they made the switch for that exact same reason and to me it just seems to be a no brainer.

 

[cpo]

Wonder if Glock entertained any Mo Co officials at the Gentleman’s Clubs outside Atlanta?

I read that book.... :-)

 

[zoostation]

So I'm not able to get much into details, but my department just traded all our Glock .40s for Glock 9s. We had some failures that led to accidental discharges, Glock replaced them ALL without question. It turns out that the .40 created a lot of pressure, leading to premature part failures.

Our department firearms and swat tested caliber rounds and came to the conclusion that the speer g2 9mm penetrated better and expanded better than our federal hydrashock .40. Whether it's true or not, who knows. Officers carried 6 shot .38 revolvers shortly before I came on... having 15 or 17 rounds of 9mm is a vast improvement in my mind.

Shot placement and rounds on target are far more important to me than a slightly larger caliber. Hopefully this is all for naught for me, as I hope and pray to never shoot anything besides paper or steel targets!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

From my experience, which includes reading all of the autopsy evidence recovery (bullets) reports from police shootings for several years in a large department that carried .40, in addition to 25 total years in LE and 6 working for ammo and gun manufacturers, the Hydra Shok is not a good round in .40, IMHO. Great round in 9mm, in fact it's what I still carry today when I carry my little LC9, but I saw a lot of crappy performance and core jacket separations with the .40 HS. I think really the .40 round is just too fast and heavy for the Hydra Shok design. Your dept. may have been better off testing some Gold Dot or Golden Saber similar bonded jacket HP .40 ammo. I really think the bonded jacket makes the difference in performance for that round.

Which is another thing many folks seem to not grasp about caliber performance. A bullet design can do great in one caliber, and suck in another.

But I don't shoot turnips and engine blocks in my back yard and put it on Youtube as science, like some kind of Fetal Mountain Dew Syndrome version of HP White Labs. So my background in these matters is limited.

 

[Eastern_Water_Moccasin]

Sheep?

You just got your rights back to own firearms and are claiming to be some kind of authority on firearms?

never said I was any kind of authority I just joined in and shared my thoughts about .40. I hope i didn't hurt your feeling because that would just break my F*****g heart.

 

[zoostation]

Wonder if Glock entertained any Mo Co officials at the Gentleman’s Clubs outside Atlanta?

I can remember when gun manufacturers used to openly and publicly give away new guns to county execs and chiefs when they got a contract. How they ever got away with it makes me scratch my head now.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

I can remember when gun manufacturers used to openly and publicly give away new guns to county execs and chiefs when they got a contract. How they ever got away with it makes me scratch my head now.

The same thing occurred back in the 19th Century...Sam Colt regularly gave presentation guns to high ranking military officers and politicians that might remember him come contract time. Other gun makers probably did the same.

 

[zoostation]

The same thing occurred back in the 19th Century...Sam Colt regularly gave presentation guns to high ranking military officers and politicians that might remember him come contract time. Other gun makers probably did the same.

Google American Eagle Lugers for a fun read.

 

[photoracer]

Wouldn't you all agree that if you were in a shootout, you shooting at someone and they're shooting back, that if you hit them with a larger round moving faster and weighing more, it would disrupt there returning fire? It seems that you would need those 2 extra 9mm rounds in the magazine to effectively end the gun fight. If I were in the woods a came across a black bear i would surely bet that .40 cal would keep more space between us than 9mm. 357Sig, even better. 10mm, even better. Just saying

In Alaska you will find that when it comes to bear protection, surprisingly enough 9mm has ended a situation with a higher percentage than just about any caliber. There are advantages and disadvantages of every caliber but surprisingly lethality is generally not one of them. If you hit center of mass the results are not that different. If you don't, well the shooter needs more practice not another caliber.

 

[clandestine]

never said I was any kind of authority I just joined in and shared my thoughts about .40. I hope i didn't hurt your feeling because that would just break my F*****g heart.

You will be here for the long haul for sure.

 

[clandestine]

Here is a good picture that conveys my opinion of .40

Truth is gunshops have a hell of a time selling .40's now days. Talk to any shop owner and they will tell you. The masses don't want them anymore.

This thread has gotten out of hand for me. I said my piece.

 

[photoracer]

From my experience, which includes reading all of the evidence reports from police shootings for several years in a large department that carried .40, in addition to 25 total years in LE and 6 working for ammo and gun manufacturers, the Hydra Shok is not a good round in .40, IMHO. Great round in 9mm, in fact it's what I still carry today when I carry my little LC9, but I saw a lot of crappy performance and core jacket separations with the .40 HS. I think really the .40 round is just too fast and heavy for the Hydra Shok design. Your dept. may have been better off testing some Gold Dot or Golden Saber similar bonded jacket HP .40 ammo. I really think the bonded jacket makes the difference in performance for that round.

Which is another thing many folks seem to not grasp about caliber performance. A bullet design can do great in one caliber, and suck in another.

But I don't shoot turnips and engine blocks in my back yard and put it on Youtube as science, like some kind of Fetal Mountain Dew Syndrome version of HP White Labs. So my background in these matters is limited.

??? The Fed HS .40 is slower than the Fed HS 9mm by 120 FPS.
It a fact that bullet expansion is directly related to velocity. Its hard to design a bullet that will reliably expand at velocities of 1000 FPS or slower Its simply physics.

 

[Batt816]

never said I was any kind of authority I just joined in and shared my thoughts about .40. I hope i didn't hurt your feeling because that would just break my F*****g heart.

No one believes you are any kind of authority, I think you have proven you are not. I happen to think this is an interesting topic, but YOU continue spout off unbelievable accounts and even attack those “sheep” who counter your statements with doubt. I tend to listen to those who chose a career in LE
and I respect their opinions, based on the thread title. Others that disagree are only stating their opinion based on what they know. I like my 9 and I like my 40, but I am not about to dis respect anyone on here who shares their opinions on either. The title starts off as “why cops”. Are you a cop.... doubt it. Did your BIL take 16 rounds of 9 mm to the chest... doubt that too. I love hearing the opinions of LEO but Eastern water moccasin you tend to sour the thread. I hope I didn’t break your f......ng heart.

 

[rseymorejr]

As an aside, you know you're a dog lover when you watch a movie where a guy spends two hours killing about 600 people with up-close head shots in revenge for someone killing his dog, and the one part you always have to skip over is the dog part, because that's disturbing.

Yep that's me!
But my Daughter still teases me about the time we were watching Marley and Me and I had to abruptly jump up and go upstairs and skip the rest of the movie.

 

[Eastern_Water_Moccasin]

No one believes you are any kind of authority, I think you have proven you are not. I happen to think this is an interesting topic, but YOU continue spout off unbelievable accounts and even attack those “sheep” who counter your statements with doubt. I tend to listen to those who chose a career in LE
and I respect their opinions, based on the thread title. Others that disagree are only stating their opinion based on what they know. I like my 9 and I like my 40, but I am not about to dis respect anyone on here who shares their opinions on either. The title starts off as “why cops”. Are you a cop.... doubt it. Did your BIL take 16 rounds of 9 mm to the chest... doubt that too. I love hearing the opinions of LEO but Eastern water moccasin you tend to sour the thread. I hope I didn’t break your f......ng heart.

You won. I still like .40 and think its better than 9mm. Get your panties outa bunch

 

[Eastern_Water_Moccasin]

Here is a good picture that conveys my opinion of .40

Truth is gunshops have a hell of a time selling .40's now days. Talk to any shop owner and they will tell you. The masses don't want them anymore.

This thread has gotten out of hand for me. I said my piece.

.40 is not a compromise between 9mm and .45 because its has more power than both. FACTS