Whats everyones aversion to modifying CNR arms?

[Machodoc]

This. I've never personally bubba'ed one, but I don't fault anyone so inclined. I do have a few that were bought sporterized or modified, and that's fine... I knew what I was getting when I bought them and bought them because I saw value in them.

My Christmas present from my wife last year was a BEAUTIFUL bolt rifle in .22-250. Nice optics... beautiful finish... rich customized wood stock. I looked at it for 15 mins before I noticed the Nazi eagle on it and realized it began life as a Mauser. This is a way nicer gun than any K98 I've ever seen. Yes it had some historical significance that is lost now... but I wouldn't trade it. To me it is far more then it ever was as a common infantry rifle. Someone who knew what they were doing turned something fairly common into something beautiful. Just my $0.02.

Sure ... and that's your prerogative ... but the points that people here keep trying to make on this subject (other than "It's your gun") are that:

• C&R is a collectors' license
• This is a C&R group
• Not everyone who comes here has the experience to make an informed decision
• When you modify a rifle, you not only destroy some of the collector value, but you may also be removing it from C&R elegibility
• If it's not a collectors' rifle, and especially if it's not C&R eligible, it is probably (by definition) not appropriate to this group
• We don't want someone who is new to collecting to come here and think that modifying a C&R rifle is what we're all about. We should, instead, be educating them as to the difference between an original C&R and one that's being modified to the detriment of the originality, the collector value, its historical importance, etc. ... no matter how much the person doing it values its new "custom" look
• Maybe there should be a "Customized Firearms" group, so that we don't have to constantly be going through this? It's not that people aren't entitled to do what they want with their guns, or entitled to their opinions: it's only that those things are inconsistent with the fundamental intentions of having a C&R firearms category

 

[Doctor_M]

All fair points, Machodoc.

 

[Threeband]

Long ago, many fine custom rifles were built on old surplus actions. They may be C&R eligible in their own right. Some may be worth more than a collector grade Mauser.

But times have changed, and there's no good reason to destroy a collectible rifle to build a custom rifle. Back in the day, new commercial rifles were hard to come by, milsurps were cheap and plentiful, few were interested in shooting them, and 8mm Mauser ammo was unobtainable.

 

[BlackBart]

Long ago, many fine custom rifles were built on old surplus actions. They may be C&R eligible in their own right. Some may be worth more than a collector grade Mauser.

But times have changed, and there's no good reason to destroy a collectible rifle to build a custom rifle. Back in the day, new commercial rifles were hard to come by, milsurps were cheap and plentiful, few were interested in shooting them, and 8mm Mauser ammo was unobtainable.

Huh?? Not following....8 MM ammo was EVERYWHERE in the 60's and 70's (along with 303) CHEAP. Reason people picked on the Mauser and Springfield actions were cheap AND good, clean looking actions. Brit Enfield were ugly, not as strong... the US 1917 while strong as an ox were butt ugly with the ears, they were often ground off and it too was a good sporter.

 

[Dave91]

Huh?? Not following....8 MM ammo was EVERYWHERE in the 60's and 70's (along with 303) CHEAP. Reason people picked on the Mauser and Springfield actions were cheap AND good, clean looking actions. Brit Enfield were ugly, not as strong... the US 1917 while strong as an ox were butt ugly with the ears, they were often ground off and it too was a good sporter.

Lee Enfields and 1917's are not ugly. You guys and your high standards...
It's the personality that matters

 

[Threeband]

My understanding is that 8mm was scarce-to-unobtainable in the 50s.

 

[newq]

For those who were looking to see the progress, Here is what she looks like so far.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3206901&postcount=171

 

[BlackBart]

My understanding is that 8mm was scarce-to-unobtainable in the 50s.

I can't speak for the 50's but 60's/70's, it was cheap and everywhere. Remember, there were about a billion rounds surplus much like the ugly Russian crap of today. Here, page 3 http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1960issues/G0160.pdf

100 rounds 8mm.... $7.50. I googled and this is the first and ONLY link I needed. I wished Sunny's Surplus lasted a few more years after the GCA of 1968, they had it ALL but I pretty much missed the boat.

Just for the hell of it I did google the 50's, 5 bucks per hundred. Page 35

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1957issues/G0357.pdf

 

[BlackBart]

Lee Enfields and 1917's are not ugly. You guys and your high standards...
It's the personality that matters

Chicks dig guys with pretty guns.

Everybody knows that. Enfields and 17's are like coyote ugly!

 

[j8064]

After personally giving back "original dignity" to many C&R rifles Bubba once got his hands on that have come my way, there's no way I could subscribe to "Bubba's" thought process.

Why someone would intentionally alter a rifle's original config (that has been that way for prob'ly longer than Bubba has been alive) is beyond my understanding.

There are plenty of modern rifles available for Bubba to "have at" till Bubba's heart is content.

Why take away a piece of history no matter how small?

 

[newq]

I can see your very valid point j8064. I can appreciate the desire to keep firearms stock for their historical significance.

I dunno I like functionality over form I suppose. I use ALL of my firearms. None of them get to be safe queens. That being said I don't mind tailoring them. When it comes to C&R firearms I also like to keep them in a manner which can be "undone" if and when the time comes.

 

[Machodoc]

I dunno I like functionality over form I suppose.

That's your choice, but FORM is what C&R firearms are all about. It's the originality that makes them collectible. Some are highly functional, and some are interesting because they are basically POS guns. I know a couple of guys who collect Saturday Night Specials, and more than that who have some Rubys.

I use ALL of my firearms. None of them get to be safe queens.

I use nearly all of mine, too. The very few I don't use are either too rare, too fragile, too questionably safe, too hard to get ammo for, or just not ready to shoot yet. In some cases, I have multiples of types and shoot some much more than others.

You can keep a rifle original and still enjoy shooting it. I personally don't care if I hit center target with most of my firearms. I know some are more than capable of it, and others I give thanks to when I still have all my fingers left when the noise and smoke clears.

The "Model T" Fords were hard-pressed to do 50 mph. Does that mean they should all be chopped up and have big engines installed? They'd be more functional, but they wouldn't be "Model Ts" anymore.

That being said I don't mind tailoring them. When it comes to C&R firearms I also like to keep them in a manner which can be "undone" if and when the time comes.

And that's not a bad approach at all. I've got two pistols that I put different grips onto. One is so that I can shoot it and not worry about messing up a perfect set of original grips, and the other was a spare pair that I coated pink for my wife (but the original grips can be back on in less than 5 minutes, and are kept with the gun).

What I'd propose, though, is that when you want to show off something that's been radically modified from its C$R configuration, you post it in the Rifles or Pistols group, rather than here ... or at least continue to explain that it's all just bolt-on, and that you can put it back to all original in a matter of minutes.

Why? Because we've had people who came into this group, saw examples of bubba work being done to "just another common rifle", then proceeded to sand and varnish their own "common" rifle ... only to find out too late that what they had was a rare model.

We always need to consider, as we prepare a post, that someone is going to read it who knows nothing at all about C$R firearms. They've come here to learn. What are we going to teach them in this forum for firearms collectors?

 

[newq]

That's your choice, but FORM is what C&R firearms are all about. It's the originality that makes them collectible. Some are highly functional, and some are interesting because they are basically POS guns. I know a couple of guys who collect Saturday Night Specials, and more than that who have some Rubys.



I use nearly all of mine, too. The very few I don't use are either too rare, too fragile, too questionably safe, too hard to get ammo for, or just not ready to shoot yet. In some cases, I have multiples of types and shoot some much more than others.

You can keep a rifle original and still enjoy shooting it. I personally don't care if I hit center target with most of my firearms. I know some are more than capable of it, and others I give thanks to when I still have all my fingers left when the noise and smoke clears.

The "Model T" Fords were hard-pressed to do 50 mph. Does that mean they should all be chopped up and have big engines installed? They'd be more functional, but they wouldn't be "Model Ts" anymore.



And that's not a bad approach at all. I've got two pistols that I put different grips onto. One is so that I can shoot it and not worry about messing up a perfect set of original grips, and the other was a spare pair that I coated pink for my wife (but the original grips can be back on in less than 5 minutes, and are kept with the gun).

What I'd propose, though, is that when you want to show off something that's been radically modified from its C$R configuration, you post it in the Rifles or Pistols group, rather than here ... or at least continue to explain that it's all just bolt-on, and that you can put it back to all original in a matter of minutes.

Why? Because we've had people who came into this group, saw examples of bubba work being done to "just another common rifle", then proceeded to sand and varnish their own "common" rifle ... only to find out too late that what they had was a rare model.

We always need to consider, as we prepare a post, that someone is going to read it who knows nothing at all about C$R firearms. They've come here to learn. What are we going to teach them in this forum for firearms collectors?

You are right. I guess I should have stated that I wanted all my mods to be able to be "undone"

The single most striking thing you mentioned is in the last statement. I find it very significant and potent at that.

perhaps something I never considered. It is important to know when you really have something and when it comes to firearms some time a oddly placed has resembling nothing more than an odd marring of a rifles finish can mean alot.

With that being said I "think" I know what I have but the history of some sino-soviets that are odd such as mine are difficult to find anything on.

It has the /26\ stamp on the receiver but the serial is of the E4xxx variety. literally a 4 digit serial preceded by a E. There is a stamp on the receiver where the barrel threads in and it resembles a circle with a c in the middle. all serials match across the rifle except the stock which has no serial whatsoever which I assume would mean it is a factory re-arsenal. Otherwise the rifle resembles any other sino-soviet/norinco sks.

Curiously enough the rifle was imported by IO Inc. Monroe N.C. and some suspect that these types were in fact soviet rifles which were forced through as norincos although that still remains up for debate.

 

[Machodoc]

With that being said I "think" I know what I have but the history of some sino-soviets that are odd such as mine are difficult to find anything on.

It has the /26\ stamp on the receiver but the serial is of the E4xxx variety. literally a 4 digit serial preceded by a E. There is a stamp on the receiver where the barrel threads in and it resembles a circle with a c in the middle. all serials match across the rifle except the stock which has no serial whatsoever which I assume would mean it is a factory re-arsenal. Otherwise the rifle resembles any other sino-soviet/norinco sks.

Curiously enough the rifle was imported by IO Inc. Monroe N.C. and some suspect that these types were in fact soviet rifles which were forced through as norincos although that still remains up for debate.

What you've got is a Jianshe arsenal /26\ "letter gun". These have traditionally been thought to have been made in 1956, when the Soviet techs were still in the plant as advisers, but that's being challenged now. The fact is that we don't know much about any of the early Chinese SKSs for sure, and what we think we know is based upon reasonable conjecture. There's a good argument for them being among the earliest 1956 models, and a newer argument that they were made around 1960 ... both are based upon pretty compelling logic, but neither theory is based upon documented fact.

What we do know is that these rifles were actually quite hard to come by until the Albanian/Sino/Soviet rifles started to be imported. Now they are more common, but still sort of rare ... and very cool.

If yours doesn't have a number on the stock, it probably was given a new stock, but probably not re-arsenaled. Arsenal repair work was done on some of these rifles, but there's no evidence of wholesale arsenal refurbishing like the Soviets did.

There are some substantial differences between your rifle and later ones that were exported by China North Industries (NORINCO ... they were a shadow export company for the PLA, and not manufacturers of firearms). The later NORINCO rifles are good, but not as well made as yours. They used some sheet metal parts, where yours were machined out of steel block ... look at the trigger housing. The early rifles also have chrome-lined bores, and the later NORINCO exports didn't. This is a significant difference. It's sort of like having a 55 year old Rolls Royce v. a 35 year old Ford.

Here are some photos of what a Sino-Soviet "letter gun" looks like that didn't get to the U.S. by way of Albania. They aren't very common in this condition, but a few did come directly to the U.S. with the NORINCOS in the late '80s and early '90s. This is what the Albanian imports looked like when they were new.

I might point out that, in favor of the argument that these were among the earlier rifles made in China, this original stock looks very much like the Russian Arctic Birch stocks. The last photo is the stock on a 1951 Tula.

Why not post some photos of your I.O. import SKS. I'm not sure where that theory you state originated, but the I.O. imports that I've seen (and own) are the same basic Sino-Soviet Albanian imports that CAI has been bringing in. I don't know enough about I.O.'s history, but they'd have had to be in business back at least to about 1993 to have brought in anything as Norinco exports. I'm not sure they were around then. [EDIT: It looks like I.O. has been incorporated for 18 years, so that doesn't quite put them in business back when NORINCO exports were still coming into the U.S.. They could have bought stock from someone else who had it on hand, but it wouldn't have their import mark on it. That theory doesn't hold up to scrutiny too well.]

Also ... take a look at the new SKS posting from MStrauss. His looks like the very same series as you describe your rifle. It's also an E4XXX serial number.

 

[Jradack]

Lee Enfields and 1917's are not ugly. You guys and your high standards...
It's the personality that matters

I agree 100%
Any enfield, American or British is damn sexy.
The 1917 is a little extra sexy cause it was made in 'merica!
I see so many 1917's sporterized and it just ruins them. There is a lot of history with those rifles.
I think it was Alvin York in ww1 carried one and received a confessional metal of honor using it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it was Alvin York.

 

[reverendbeer]

Here are some photos of what a Sino-Soviet "letter gun" looks like that didn't get to the U.S. by way of Albania.

I hate you so much right now.

HATE.

 

[Machodoc]

I hate you so much right now.

HATE.

Padre Cerveza ... you have built up soooo much good karma here that I suspect a real gold nugget of a C&R is just around the corner for you.

BTW - do you have anything that shoots 7.62x25?