What the ATF says about Bound Books

[Machodoc]

There has been a lot of discussion here about "bound books" (so-named because of the manner in which such records were traditionally kept, but properly called Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Records). Several people have posted their versions of pages for these entries, and have discussed why they like their forms better than what I have posted.

I'll admit that I personally like some of their forms better, but that's not the issue. At issue is the fact that we are dealing with federal government regulations, and the federal government wants us to play by their rules ... precisely!

Here's exactly what the ATF (BATFE) says about C&R licensed collectors' Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Records, and the illustration that they published. Please note that this says things like, "shall be maintained ... under the format prescribed...." and, "The format required ...", and not, "might be maintained ... under the format prescribed...." and, "The format suggested ...." When I see a federal regulation that uses the words, "shall" and "format required", I take that to mean they want the log to be in exactly that format. That's why what I posted is formatted the way that it is.

What I'd suggest is that you might want to keep two sets of records: one for ATF; and one a catalog of your collection in which you can maintain photos, prices, specific info about condition, etc..

The first one will keep you legal with your "bound book" requirements, and the second one will serve as a better record for you to remember what you have, where you got it, what you paid for it, what it's worth, and so forth, in case your widow has to sell your collection or you need to make an insurance claim--or you just want to flip through it to show what you own, or have owned in the past.

 

[Docster]

I had maintained in other threads that 'bound form' is meant to describe the publishing technique of binding; (linguistics, of a morpheme) That cannot stand alone--that is, like a book, where pages are not removable and do not 'stand alone'. I was of the opinion that the BATF used that term because they would want record keeping that would not allow for easy changing of pages and create more accountability, so I had purchased a 'bound book'.

However, many on the forum with more experience than I have stated that 3-ring binders, loose pages, etc have been acceptable. For the record, I am still concerned that loose pages in a 3-ring binder may be easily altered/removed/changed and any BATF agent doing an audit could raise that issue. If not now, perhaps later when C & R becomes more of a target for the gun-grabbers. The law says 'bound form'. Just like I wouldn't necessarily trust the interpretation of an IRS agent, the interpretation of a BATF agent means nothing if the agency wants to go after an FLL03 holder for poor record-keeping. The FFL03 holder is responsible for knowing the law.

 

[Machodoc]

I had maintained in other threads that 'bound form' is meant to describe the publishing technique of binding; (linguistics, of a morpheme) That cannot stand alone--that is, like a book, where pages are not removable and do not 'stand alone'. I was of the opinion that the BATF used that term because they would want record keeping that would not allow for easy changing of pages and create more accountability, so I had purchased a 'bound book'.

However, many on the forum with more experience than I have stated that 3-ring binders, loose pages, etc have been acceptable. For the record, I am still concerned that loose pages in a 3-ring binder may be easily altered/removed/changed and any BATF agent doing an audit could raise that issue. If not now, perhaps later when C & R becomes more of a target for the gun-grabbers. The law says 'bound form'. Just like I wouldn't necessarily trust the interpretation of an IRS agent, the interpretation of a BATF agent means nothing if the agency wants to go after an FLL03 holder for poor record-keeping. The FFL03 holder is responsible for knowing the law.

This is from the ATF, Docster. The emphasis is mine.

Q: What is a “bound book?”
A “bound book” is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.
[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html#bound-book

==================================

Also, from a BATFE training script:

"Officially, it’s known as a Firearms Acquisition and Disposition Record or a Record of Receipt and Disposition. In many dealerships, it’s called the “bound book,” because that’s how they keep their receipts and records, in a big, bound book."

This goes on to say that "bound books" can be maintained electronically, with ATF permission.

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-3.html

 

[Chaunsey]

I had maintained in other threads that 'bound form' is meant to describe the publishing technique of binding; (linguistics, of a morpheme) That cannot stand alone--that is, like a book, where pages are not removable and do not 'stand alone'. I was of the opinion that the BATF used that term because they would want record keeping that would not allow for easy changing of pages and create more accountability, so I had purchased a 'bound book'.

However, many on the forum with more experience than I have stated that 3-ring binders, loose pages, etc have been acceptable. For the record, I am still concerned that loose pages in a 3-ring binder may be easily altered/removed/changed and any BATF agent doing an audit could raise that issue. If not now, perhaps later when C & R becomes more of a target for the gun-grabbers. The law says 'bound form'. Just like I wouldn't necessarily trust the interpretation of an IRS agent, the interpretation of a BATF agent means nothing if the agency wants to go after an FLL03 holder for poor record-keeping. The FFL03 holder is responsible for knowing the law.

i disagree, the use of binders is NOT based on opinion, it is based on ATF definitions of a bound book.


this is what the official ATF FAQ says about a bound book, this is both on their website and printed in the official federal firearms regulation reference guide.



Q: What is a “bound book?”

A “bound book” is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]


if this definition ever changes, the ATF will have to issue a ruling letter which will be sent out to all licensee's prior to the rule taking effect. so if they do change their mind on this, they will have to tell us, and we will have a chance to aquire and fill out a new boundbook before the rule takes effect.



EDIT: lol had my window open too long writing this post, beat by machodoc.

 

[Docster]

I didn't say I disagreed, I stated that many who are here longer than I have stated otherwise. I stated my concern only. Their own term 'permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages' is somewhat contradictory. When it comes to dealing with an agency like BATF, I don't have a lot of trust......

 

[Chaunsey]

I didn't say I disagreed, I stated that many who are here longer than I have stated otherwise. I stated my concern only. Their own term 'permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages' is somewhat contradictory. When it comes to dealing with an agency like BATF, I don't have a lot of trust......

ya but they could just as easily go the other way and say a physically bound book is not adequate, because its more dificult to digitize, or something like that, so why worry about it? worry about what the rules say right now, not what they might say in the future.


so lets not worry about what if, and instead worry about what is.

 

[Machodoc]

Even the fact that you can maintain these records on the computer, with ATF permission, suggests that they are heading away from having to maintain a hard copy ... but aren't quite there yet.

The important thing is that the ATF's own training program states that "Bound Book" is a historic term, still in use, but, "Officially, it’s known as a Firearms Acquisition and Disposition Record or a Record of Receipt and Disposition." So ... the official terms mention "record," but they don't say anything about those records needing to be bound into a fixed volume.

In matters like these, I don't go to discussion boards, or even to what Amazon is selling. I go directly to the sources published by the government agency. That's the only thing that you can count on, because if there's any dispute, that's what ATF is going to be citing.

 

[Chaunsey]

Even the fact that you can maintain these records on the computer, with ATF permission, suggests that they are heading away from having to maintain a hard copy ... but aren't quite there yet.

The important thing is that the ATF's own training program states that "Bound Book" is a historic term, still in use, but, "Officially, it’s known as a Firearms Acquisition and Disposition Record or a Record of Receipt and Disposition." So ... the official terms mention "record," but they don't say anything about those records needing to be bound into a fixed volume.

In matters like these, I don't go to discussion boards, or even to what Amazon is selling. I go directly to the sources published by the government agency. That's the only thing that you can count on, because if there's any dispute, that's what ATF is going to be citing.

aye, i suspect soon they will officially allow electronic records for everyone.

it was only a couple of years ago that emailed licenses were not allowed, and only a couple of years before that faxed licenses were not allowed, you had to physically mail a copy of your license.

the government is always years behind the technology and common practices of the private sector, but eventually they'll come around.

they already allow businesses to keep electronic records, just requiring them to make printed copies now and then and on request.

my guess is they'll do the same for C&R eventually, allow us to keep electronic records, and simply require us to print a copy at their request.

when it all comes down to it, C&R is very much an "honor system" they have no way to easily track our purchases or sales, they have no easy way to confirm the accuracy of our records.

so there is no reason for them to be all that worried about how people who voluntarily keep records on their own personal firearms go about doing it.

ATF agents have in the past said as much that C&R collectors cause very little trouble and so they're not that worried about folks like us.


im not trying to suggest anyone not take this seriously or whatever, my point is simply that you should read the rules, as they are and follow them, and not worry about it too much, despite the government as a whole being hostile to gun rights, its actually not the every day ATF agents and operations that we should be afraid of.

worst case scenario, you get audited, they point out something they prefer you do differently and you change it, as long as your information is right theres not much to be worried about.

 

[bbguns]

Not disagreeing with any of the analysis here...just find it ironic that the Feds are so precise when using the word 'shall' in regulations but have trouble understanding 'SHALL not be infringed...'

 

[PJDiesel]

Question. How would I fit a full address in that little one line spot?

 

[Chaunsey]

Question. How would I fit a full address in that little one line spot?

the above is only an example of format, not meant to be an actual bound book entry


there are a few threads with various styles of boundbook page on the forum right now you can use.

 

[Machodoc]

Question. How would I fit a full address in that little one line spot?

Try this way: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=105073

 

[PJDiesel]

Try this way: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=105073

Thats the one I use (thanks to members here). Its not "single line" though, as I read the ATF expects it to be. I write out the address just like you would see it anywhere (3 lines down).

 

[Machodoc]

Thats the one I use (thanks to members here). Its not "single line" though, as I read the ATF expects it to be. I write out the address just like you would see it anywhere (3 lines down).

I don't believe that ATF uses the term, "single line", but I do think they use the term, "single column," or words that mean the same thing. Please cite me a source if I'm wrong.

 

[Machodoc]

Not disagreeing with any of the analysis here...just find it ironic that the Feds are so precise when using the word 'shall' in regulations but have trouble understanding 'SHALL not be infringed...'

 

[PJDiesel]

I don't believe that ATF uses the term, "single line", but I do think they use the term, "single column," or words that mean the same thing. Please cite me a source if I'm wrong.

Hmmmm.....

How about "single column" with a few lines of writing in them?

 

[cantstop]

There has been a lot of discussion here about "bound books" ...

The image you posted is similar to, but different from that in the ATF online publications available here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

Specifically, page 8 of this online ATF publication (Section 478.125) has the paragraphs describing the "Record of receipt and disposition (f) Firearms receipt and disposition of licensed collectors":
Download the Firearms Curios or Relics List (1972 – 2007) (6 MB)

You do have me wondering about whether the columns have to be vertical or not...

 

[cantstop]

I have updated the format of my template to be columnar after reading machodoc's concerns.

 

[Machodoc]

Hmmmm.....

How about "single column" with a few lines of writing in them?

That's how I understand the regs, so the forms that I prepared allow you to do that. If you use the excel version, you can type in all the information needed as required--multiple lines in each column--then print each sheet when you update it and replace that sheet in your record book.

 

[Machodoc]

I have updated the format of my template to be columnar after reading machodoc's concerns.

I hope that you realize that I'm not trying to bust balls with any of this. It's just that I saw so many different formats posted in different places, and so much different discussion about this, that I went to the source--the ATF regs that deal specifically with the records to be kept by collectors (cited earlier in this thread).

I'd also seen that people had been audited and were made to change their entries. I just didn't want that hassle, in the event that I ever have an audit. My format is their format: nothing more or less.

I like the idea of having a separate, personal, firearms collection log, though.