What do we do after pulling the trigger?

[Huckleberry]

For the record, just in case someone thought I was being flip...

This scenario was told to me by a Police Detective in a PA town, near Philly, who got the information from the local DA.

The DA told the detective, that this is the ONLY means by which he cannot tear the shooter apart on the witness stand, or rip their case apart. He further stated:

1. If you reload, during the shooting, the question arises as to if you could have broken off and escaped.

2. If you only fire a shot or two and then stop, the question arises as to whether or not you were in REAL danger to start with, instead of "fearing for your life".

3. If you called the police, and then fired, why didn't you run first, and then call from a neighbor's house.

4. If you say ANYTHING at all, he will shove it up your @$$.

So, the above scenario was not being flip, but actually one that protects your backside. When the police show up....

"Uh, Officer Smith, what did the defendant say when he called 911?"
"He didn't say anything, he didn't call."

"Officer Smith, when you arrived on the scene, how did you find the defendant?"
"He was standing over the dead body, he seemed distance and dispondent."

"What makes you say that, Officer Smith?"
"Well, he was just standing over the dead body like he was in shock, in fact he was still pulling the trigger on the weapon, although it was out of ammunition."

From a police detective and a DA, just in case anyone thought my motives were a bit "jackwagonish".

DE
First, the Jackwagon got sent packing for trying to shutdown this thread with his childish antics and apparent desire for MDS to be more like AR15.com.

You are contributing to thread and discussion with your POV and experience.

Now, I do not agree with that advice for myself and others for the following.....

I think I would be securing the scene and my family while waiting for the police.

When a officer responds to shots fire and reported shooting, he is goin in with gun drawn and at the ready to protect himself.

He sees you standing over a body with your pistol, he is going to be commanding you to drop your weapon IMMEDIATELY. All he wants is you to comply to that order NOW.
If you fail to respond to his command, he will mostly likely shoot you. I would not trust my life to thje slim chance that he may get the notion to walk up and disarm me. Most likely, the officer will be fighting his tunnel vision as he is focused upon a suspect holding a gun and not complying to his orders to drop the weapon.

MDS LEOs, what say you?

 

[traveller]

When a officer responds to shots fire and reported shooting, he is goin in with gun drawn and at the ready to protect himself.

He sees you standing over a body with your pistol, he is going to be commanding you to drop your weapon IMMEDIATELY. All he wants is you to comply to that order NOW.
If you fail to respond to his command, he will mostly likely shoot you. I would not trust my life to thje slim chance that he may get the notion to walk up and disarm me. Most likely, the officer will be fighting his tunnel vision as he is focused upon a suspect holding a gun and not complying to his orders to drop the weapon.

I am still trying to figure out what the theory of the defense is that would be aided by standing there pretending to be dazed while dry-firing your weapon. Insanity defense ?

I dont see how standing there with your hands visible and the gun secured with the action open beyond your reach on a table would harm your position in any criminal proceeding.

 

[Dead Eye]

DE
First, the Jackwagon got sent packing for trying to shutdown this thread with his childish antics and apparent desire for MDS to be more like AR15.com.

You are contributing to thread and discussion with your POV and experience.

Now, I do not agree with that advice for myself and others for the following.....

I think I would be securing the scene and my family while waiting for the police.

When a officer responds to shots fire and reported shooting, he is goin in with gun drawn and at the ready to protect himself.

He sees you standing over a body with your pistol, he is going to be commanding you to drop your weapon IMMEDIATELY. All he wants is you to comply to that order NOW.
If you fail to respond to his command, he will mostly likely shoot you. I would not trust my life to thje slim chance that he may get the notion to walk up and disarm me. Most likely, the officer will be fighting his tunnel vision as he is focused upon a suspect holding a gun and not complying to his orders to drop the weapon.

MDS LEOs, what say you?

Huckleberry, thank you. Since a lot of the antics happened after my post, I didn't want anyone to misconstrue what seemed to be an abnormal response as being off post, or whatever. Although I particularly wouldn't subscribe to the notion, it does make one think about those issues that one must consider, "after the fact".

I am still trying to figure out what the theory of the defense is that would be aided by standing there pretending to be dazed while dry-firing your weapon. Insanity defense ?

I dont see how standing there with your hands visible and the gun secured with the action open beyond your reach on a table would harm your position in any criminal proceeding.

Traveller, the idea is that it leaves no doubt in anyone'e mind as to the shooter's state of mind. People who stop firing, think. When you do, the prosecution then wants to climb inside your head and twist your thoughts all up in court. If you come across someone who is standing there, over a dead body, still dry firing, the first thing you think of is, "Dang, Dude must have really been FEARING FOR HIS LIFE". The second thing you immediately think of is, "Sir, put the weapon down and step away from it with your hands up". The thoughts of the DA, not mine.

With all of that said, me personally, I'll take my chances with the DA and the court. I'd shoot first, put the perp down - hard (keep firing until they quit moving) and then call the police while I stay focused on him, while still looking around making sure he didn't bring a friend. When the cops show up, I put the gun down, and lawyer up.

 

[traveller]

Traveller, the idea is that it leaves no doubt in anyone'e mind as to the shooter's state of mind.

Huh ?

It may be interpreted that way.

The alternate explanation is that of a 'frenzied deranged killer who finally managed to live out one of the zombie-killing phantasies he had been posting about on the internet for years (see exibit #255 through 1022).

If you come across someone who is standing there, over a dead body, still dry firing, the first thing you think of is, "Dang, Dude must have really been FEARING FOR HIS LIFE". The second thing you immediately think of is, "Sir, put the weapon down and step away from it with your hands up". The thoughts of the DA, not mine.

The first thing a person with a gun in his hand is to a responding police officer is a threat to his life. Yeah, in your great master scenario, you are still pointing at the perp, neatly draped on the floor and the officer immediately figures out what is going on, however in the statement the officer will give 24 hrs after you are dead, he will state that you seemed confused and raised the gun towards him.

With all of that said, me personally, I'll take my chances with the DA and the court. I'd shoot first, put the perp down - hard (keep firing until they quit moving)

If you indeed do that, you will probably end up with a couple of difficult to explain entry wounds in your opponent and you will likely look at the allegation that you intended to kill another human rather than stopping the threat he posed to your life.







I'll just put this whole recommendation in the 'free internet legal advice' file.

 

[Dead Eye]

Huh ?

It may be interpreted that way.

The alternate explanation is that of a 'frenzied deranged killer who finally managed to live out one of the zombie-killing phantasies he had been posting about on the internet for years (see exibit #255 through 1022).

The first thing a person with a gun in his hand is to a responding police officer is a threat to his life. Yeah, in your great master scenario, you are still pointing at the perp, neatly draped on the floor and the officer immediately figures out what is going on, however in the statement the officer will give 24 hrs after you are dead, he will state that you seemed confused and raised the gun towards him.

If you indeed do that, you will probably end up with a couple of difficult to explain entry wounds in your opponent and you will likely look at the allegation that you intended to kill another human rather than stopping the threat he posed to your life.

My original scenario was that given from a friend of mine, who happens to be a police detective, who once again got it from a DA during training. Again, the idea was to get the officers to think about all of the possibilities, as though I outlined above. The DA offered it as one such scenario, for which he would have no way to attack in court.

As for my personal way of handling it, it goes back to my original thought that the DA posed, in that there will be holes all in my story for the DA to exploit. That is why the DA threw that out there to start with, but in my case, I'll take my chances.

In any case, I'll pretty much sit back now, and hear from you how an expert would handle this matter, for which, I have yet to hear from.

Your thoughts?

 

[K31]

I think a lot of people may see a police response and assume they have to do the same. I am aware of a police officer that shot a deranged gunman, disarmed him, cuffedhim and used CPR to keep him alive until paramedics arrived. If I recall correctly, the family of one of the North Hollywood shooters sued LAPD because they did not attmpt to begin CPR.
.

Since the one that didn't survive at the scene (the one that did, later died elsewhere) put his handgun in his mouth aimed upwards and pulled the trigger, resuscitating him with CPR would have been a good trick.

Although come to think of it, since it's LA, they probably have at least one Officer Jesus on the force.

 

[joppaj]

Since the one that didn't survive at the scene (the one that did, later died elsewhere)

I should have been more clear. The family of the one that was transported sued. They claimed that the officers that shot him should have immediatly begun CPR and told the ambulance crews that the scene was safe enough to enter.

 

[K31]

I should have been more clear. The family of the one that was transported sued. They claimed that the officers that shot him should have immediatly begun CPR and told the ambulance crews that the scene was safe enough to enter.

See, if they had Officer Jesus try CPR then in court they could say, "Your Honor, not even Jesus could bring him back".

 

[traveller]

My original scenario was that given from a friend of mine, who happens to be a police detective, who once again got it from a DA during training.

I am starting to think that your officer friend misunderstood what the DA was trying to say. He probably said 'this the only scenario I could imagine that I couldn't poke holes into' and your friend translated this a recommendation of 'here is a great way to deal with a self-defense situation'.

Say you have a modern 9mm, you encounter a burglar/mugger fire three rounds and he goes to the ground. Do you honestly believe that you would improve your claim to self defense by pulling the trigger another 12 times until the slide locks back ? Really ??

 

[Lord Baltimore]

repeat.

 

[Dead Eye]

I am starting to think that your officer friend misunderstood what the DA was trying to say. He probably said 'this the only scenario I could imagine that I couldn't poke holes into' and your friend translated this a recommendation of 'here is a great way to deal with a self-defense situation'.

Say you have a modern 9mm, you encounter a burglar/mugger fire three rounds and he goes to the ground. Do you honestly believe that you would improve your claim to self defense by pulling the trigger another 12 times until the slide locks back ? Really ??

No, my officer friend didn't misunderstand what the DA was saying, in fact, that is EXACTLY what I said earlier, the the DA said it was the only defense he couldn't poke holes into. That is why I said, I personally wouldn't follow it, as well.

RIF

 

[Blaster229]

I am glad I have a long career of documented training as to how and what I am expected to do in one of these situations, on or off duty. I know others have it a lot worse. May doG be with anyone here that would ever go through this.