Was Tombstone right or wrong about firearms?

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  • SS396

    Forum LEO whipping post
    Aug 19, 2013
    635
    Frederick County
    While driving home tonight I thought of what could possibly be an interesting thread. Was the town of Tombstone and lawmen like Wyatt Earp correct in requiring that people entering the town relinquish their firearms? Those familiar with the story, or who have seen movies like "Tombstone" or "Wyatt Earp" will know that this occurred in the early 1880s. Any thoughts? Forgive me if this has been done before. I did a brief search, but didn't see anything similar.
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    If I recall correctly, as a former bar bouncer, Wyatt Earp, decreed that no one could carry guns into the bars, but that gun possession in Tombstone was not interfered with.
     

    ground chuck

    Rookie Jedi
    Sep 28, 2013
    4,224
    Charm City County
    If I recall correctly, as a former bar bouncer, Wyatt Earp, decreed that no one could carry guns into the bars, but that gun possession in Tombstone was not interfered with.
    I believe that in tombstone riders were to relinquish there guns at the city limits. Which is what led to the ok corral shoot out as earp and company went to go disarm the Cowboys.
     

    Don H

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 17, 2013
    1,845
    Hazzard County
    If you Google "Gun Laws, Tombstone" you'll get all kinds of hits about how gun laws were more strict then than they are today but no one actually sites the law.
     

    SS396

    Forum LEO whipping post
    Aug 19, 2013
    635
    Frederick County
    I believe that in tombstone riders were to relinquish there guns at the city limits. Which is what led to the ok corral shoot out as earp and company went to go disarm the Cowboys.

    I believe it was the city limits. Was this constitutional? If not, was it at least understandable considering the circumstances? Arizona was a US Territory at the time and not a state. I don't think that matters though.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    I believe it was the city limits. Was this constitutional? If not, was it at least understandable considering the circumstances? Arizona was a US Territory at the time and not a state. I don't think that matters though.

    Back then LEO's were" lawmen" -- they actually made up the law. Not one town in the old west was a republic --not one..

    Bottom line hundreds of drunk cowboys only a few "lawmen" it could have been much worse..

    That it is considered a model for " longstanding restrictions" suggest the dangers of allowing any law of this type no mater how justified at the time, because long after the justification is gone the law will remain.


    Now in spite of my crack about " lawmen" most of these men were well intentioned and served the public well --- they did tame the west and as they say " only broke a few eggs to make the omelette".

    In short such emergency measures may have been justified-- but where is the emergency that justifies it today? .. its not drunk cowboys we are dealing with but criminal gangs, which laws do not deter.

    The tombstone ban may have satisfied intermediate scrutiny then, but as the fact have changed I claim it no longer does.
     

    MudPuppy

    Active Member
    Jul 20, 2012
    138
    If you read the fine print, the residents of tombstone were not interfered with, it was the outsiders who could not carry. Puts a different light on it. The anti-gunners ignore that and pretend no one but Wyatt Earp and his deputies carried guns.

    Another not too fine point would be that concealed carry was seen as a sign of some one up to no good and open carry was seen as honest and above board.
     

    Dogabutila

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 21, 2010
    2,362
    IIRC, the ordnance was that you had to turn in your guns only if you were going to be in the city for awhile. If you were just passing through or conducting quick business you could keep your guns.

    It's was not constitutionally wrong for a city to require this at the time. The constitution only really applies to the federal government, and the states as rights become incorporated under the 14th. At the time slaugherhouse had just happened but it hadn't yet applied the second amendment to the states (which came with McDonald)
     

    CAS_Shooter

    Active Member
    Jan 24, 2012
    510
    If the 99% majority open carried then the temporary impounding of essentially everyones sidearm in volatile locations seems reasonable. That is hardly a scenario to base 2014 laws on. If the antis want us to go back to the 1880's rules for social conduct, who is to decide which of the many other social laws of the day should still apply. The age of consent in Arizona at that time was 12. This is not 1883 and what was done or allowed then is best left to history. What would be great for today is a simple interpretation of 2A and strict laws imposed on those that commit crimes of violence.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    IIRC, the ordnance was that you had to turn in your guns only if you were going to be in the city for awhile. If you were just passing through or conducting quick business you could keep your guns.

    It's was not constitutionally wrong for a city to require this at the time. The constitution only really applies to the federal government, and the states as rights become incorporated under the 14th. At the time slaugherhouse had just happened but it hadn't yet applied the second amendment to the states (which came with McDonald)

    To thin.. first it was not a state yet so the 2a would apply directly. Second the right is a natural right not a constitutional right. and third the 14a was a clarification in the wake of the civil war, no reason to think and many claim that the rights of persons could be disregarded by the states. All 14a does is grant the fed the power to force the issue without a war.

    That the constitution binds the federal government does not change the fact that the rights are not granted by the constitution but protected by it. 14 a says the fed can protect the rights of citizen of the US by force. It does not nor can it invent new rights.

    So the Tomstome law was either wrong or right regardless of the 14a, and all the 14a does is make clear that the fed has the power to enforce-- and that was a condition of being allowed back in the union.
     

    pitpawten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 28, 2013
    1,612
    Just watched Wyatt Earp the other night and thought about this. Certainly seemed reasonable at the time given the lawlessness.

    Things were just getting started out west WRT law and order, was very close to marshal law at times so circumstances were different.

    That being said, any one of those citizens could have made the same arguments we would make now (ala Katrina): "In a crisis/emergency situation, the last thing I want to do is surrender my arms!"
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,712
    SoMD / West PA
    I believe it was the city limits. Was this constitutional? If not, was it at least understandable considering the circumstances? Arizona was a US Territory at the time and not a state. I don't think that matters though.

    Back then people were not concerned about constitutionality, only right and wrong.

    The settlement of the dispute resulted in the OK corral.
     

    SS396

    Forum LEO whipping post
    Aug 19, 2013
    635
    Frederick County
    I read "The Last Gunfight" by Jeff Guinn a couple of years ago. It explains the story behind Tombstone that Hollywood doesn't. There was a significant amount of political turmoil between the Earps and the town leaders (Republicans) and the Cowboys (Democrats). The lawmen of the time walked an impossible line between enforcing the law and not going too far. The town leaders wanted order, but not to the point that cattle drivers or "Cowboys" stopped coming to the town and spending their money. For some towns, not necessarily Tombstone as much, this would have destroyed the town. Many town leaders were not happy with what resulted in Tombstone and it may have caused Earp to lose a race for the Cochise County Sheriffs position.

    The fact that some of the lawmen of the time were former outlaws (Earp himself walked a fine line) is important to know as well. They weren't necessarily educated in the law or the Constitution. These were the only men that would take the job though.

    Interestingly, I think, the term "cowboy" was not a positive term at that time. It was considered a derogatory label by most. Another thing that Hollywood changed.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    I read "The Last Gunfight" by Jeff Guinn a couple of years ago. It explains the story behind Tombstone that Hollywood doesn't. There was a significant amount of political turmoil between the Earps and the town leaders (Republicans) and the Cowboys (Democrats). The lawmen of the time walked an impossible line between enforcing the law and not going too far. The town leaders wanted order, but not to the point that cattle drivers or "Cowboys" stopped coming to the town and spending their money. For some towns, not necessarily Tombstone as much, this would have destroyed the town. Many town leaders were not happy with what resulted in Tombstone and it may have caused Earp to lose a race for the Cochise County Sheriffs position.

    The fact that some of the lawmen of the time were former outlaws (Earp himself walked a fine line) is important to know as well. They weren't necessarily educated in the law or the Constitution. These were the only men that would take the job though.

    Interestingly, I think, the term "cowboy" was not a positive term at that time. It was considered a derogatory label by most. Another thing that Hollywood changed.[/QUOTE]

    I think you are right. But I think it was based on the kind of damage many if them did in town... and Holywood did not change all of that sense. It did tell range wars story from a perpective more favorable yo free grazers than once would expect but that I think is due yo the role of eastern banks forclising on family farms in the 30.

    That is anti money interests anti -railroad and anti -"the man".


    In a sense clasic Hollywood popularism... or leftism if you insist. ;)
     

    SS396

    Forum LEO whipping post
    Aug 19, 2013
    635
    Frederick County
    I read "The Last Gunfight" by Jeff Guinn a couple of years ago. It explains the story behind Tombstone that Hollywood doesn't. There was a significant amount of political turmoil between the Earps and the town leaders (Republicans) and the Cowboys (Democrats). The lawmen of the time walked an impossible line between enforcing the law and not going too far. The town leaders wanted order, but not to the point that cattle drivers or "Cowboys" stopped coming to the town and spending their money. For some towns, not necessarily Tombstone as much, this would have destroyed the town. Many town leaders were not happy with what resulted in Tombstone and it may have caused Earp to lose a race for the Cochise County Sheriffs position.

    The fact that some of the lawmen of the time were former outlaws (Earp himself walked a fine line) is important to know as well. They weren't necessarily educated in the law or the Constitution. These were the only men that would take the job though.

    Interestingly, I think, the term "cowboy" was not a positive term at that time. It was considered a derogatory label by most. Another thing that Hollywood changed.[/QUOTE]

    I think you are right. But I think it was based on the kind of damage many if them did in town... and Holywood did not change all of that sense. It did tell range wars story from a perpective more favorable yo free grazers than once would expect but that I think is due yo the role of eastern banks forclising on family farms in the 30.

    That is anti money interests anti -railroad and anti -"the man".


    In a sense clasic Hollywood popularism... or leftism if you insist. ;)

    Yep, no doubt. I've read some articles that suggest that gun violence in the frontier towns was not as prevalent as Hollywood has led us to believe. In fact, the idea of a "show down" was exceedingly rare, though there were cases of violent outbursts that were over within seconds. Some believe, correctly I think, that the presence of armed people in the towns helped keep a lid on much of it. The truth is, you're only going to survive so many "show downs"; I don't care who you are. Folks were thinking about self preservation, not being the fastest gun.
     

    Docster

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2010
    9,783
    Just watched Wyatt Earp the other night and thought about this. Certainly seemed reasonable at the time given the lawlessness.

    Things were just getting started out west WRT law and order, was very close to marshal law at times so circumstances were different.

    That being said, any one of those citizens could have made the same arguments we would make now (ala Katrina): "In a crisis/emergency situation, the last thing I want to do is surrender my arms!"


    There's that 'marshal' law thing again.....

    I don't think watching a movie or TV show is the way to review history. Good, well-reviewed history books would be my choice. If indeed people were 'forced' to surrender their arms to come into town, they were deprived of their right to self-defense for reasons of safety (of the town's resident's most likely). Like it or not. Let's not try to rationalize it. When it comes to liberty and freedoms, we must accept the bad with the good. Especially if we believe that SD is a "God-given" right.
     
    Last edited:

    SS396

    Forum LEO whipping post
    Aug 19, 2013
    635
    Frederick County
    There's that 'marshal' law thing again.....

    I don't think watching a movie or TV show is the way to review history. Good, well-reviewed history books would be my choice. If indeed people were 'forced' to surrender their arms to come into town, they were deprived of their right to self-defense for reasons of safety (of the town's resident's most likely). Like it or not. Let's not try to rationalize it. When it comes to liberty and freedoms, we must accept the bad with the good.

    Agreed.
     

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