Very Interest in Old Service Rifles - History

[Sundancer]

I searched to see if there were posts in here regarding how and when these former service rifles like the SKS, Mosin, Mausers, M1 Garands (if we were allowed to actually lay hands on these in a reasonable manner) amongst others "come up" in mass quantities seemingly at one time. I think the history is very interesting especially for these rifles that 80-130 years later in some cases still make great shooters. Does someone open up a bunker Indiana Jones style and see a million rifles? Do the governments just wholesale these out after a certain point in time?

Is there a link on the history as to how these caches are discovered? Please no wikipedia (unless only real source) as I think half of that stuff is made up

What is the next great cache that might come up or in the proces of coming up that is a good shooter with a modern manufacture ammo and a C&R?

I'd love to get the Mosin story and see if there are any caches of old Springfields 30-06's that came up or are coming up etc. like from the Phillipines or somewhere that are reasonably priced.

 

[Machodoc]

There are two ways to answer your questions. One is to tell you what seems to have happened in the past, and the other is to have a crystal ball. Not trying to be glib ... just honest.

The stories of how, and where, caches of guns have been found are often put together not by how they were advertised, but by the evidence on the guns themselves. There's a reason for that: The importers don't have a crystal ball and, like you, they are looking for the next cache of firearms that they can buy, import, and sell for a good profit. They don't tend to share their sources, and even seem to hide them with "facts" that are either intentionally misleading, or perhaps truth that has been stretched a bit.

One current example is a batch of firearms that are advertised as having served in the Israeli army for years. That may be true, but many of the firearms in this batch have the original Spanish police markings and Union of South Africa markings on them. Make of that what you will.

Another example is the Chinese M56 SKS cache that came in last year. The importers were very tight-lipped about where they came from, but piecing together information from things such as "trench art" carvings on the stocks, and comparing those bits with what was going on politically between China and its communist allies at the time made it very clear that these came out of Albania.

If you are trying to become an Indiana Jones of firearms caches, get your passport and a stack of cash together, then head off to former Soviet satellite countries and remote areas that were once British colonies. Be sure that you are current on the U.S. laws of what can be imported, and from where, and at what age (and in what configuration, etc., etc.) Those laws can be complex. While you're at it, try not to get tossed into a really unpleasant prison or end up with a bullet in your own hide. As a family friend told me as a young man, "If you want to find deer, spend a lot of time in the woods." His point was that you find whatever you are looking for by going where it is likely to be, then trust on luck for the rest.

 

[Chaunsey]

there are interesting stories.

for years val forgett would basically travel the world looking for stuff in other countries that theyd sell.

he used to work for interarms which at one point owned warehouses all up and down the alexandria waterfront.

now adays century is the biggest remaining importer, val still sells stuff under old western scrounger, gibbs etc i believe, he actually often manned tables at gunshows in our area dunno if he still does.

thats the commercial side.

for garands and such with the CMP the story is interesting, because most shipments come in from countries that we sent rifles to under our lend/lease program, essentially we were giving them away, but they're still technically US property.

so because of that, the CMP can go to these countries and try to convince them to ship us back our stuff.

we've gotten huge returns from italy, greece and other countries, and soon apparently there will be some from turkey, though according to an article in the garand collectors association journal, they have only convinced the turkish navy to return their rifles which is like 9000 rifles, the turkish army actually still has some 150k, that would be awesome if we could get those too.

there are also the backstories of how guns actually came to be where they are, thats often interesting, the russian capture stuff for example


check out this DVD from IMA, "treasure is where you find it" its basically a docu,emtary about the history, finding, purchase and the actual process of cleaning out, all the guns and gear found in a sealed up nepalese palace/arsenal, its a fantastic video for guys like us that love grimy old military stuff with history.

http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/books-films/dvd/film-treasure-is-where-you-find-it-dvd.html

 

[Machodoc]

There are also large stashes of Garands in Korea (both North and South), but the U.S. Government hasn't been at all cooperative about letting those come back. People have been trying for years. I can understand the block on the North Korean stuff, but not on the stuff in the South ... unless there's concern that they sometime may be needed there, in spite of their age.

 

[MilsurpDan]

According to Mitchell's Mausers, they had special access to thousands of Mausers that were unissued and placed in caches in Europe that they uncovered in perfect condition.... those are all gone apparently now though, well since Mitchell's has been pushing that same gimmick for God knows how long now

 

[ken792]

All the foreign country has to do is say they don't want our M1's anymore. Then, they have the option of destroying them or giving them back. By US law, once they are turned over to the US Army and the US Army doesn't want them, they go to the CMP. The CMP pays for the ride back to the US.

The M1 Garands in the ROK consisted of both ones we sold and lent to them. For the ones that we lent to them, our State Department sometimes "donates" to them as military aid. They can then sell those and use the funds for State Department approved purchases. The CMP has examined the M1's in the ROK and said that they are not interested. As a result, they were sold commercially.

There's also the issue of US law. I believe that there is a provision in the 1968 GCA that any former US govt property firearm requires State Department permission to be reimported into the US, no matter which foreign entity owns it and how they acquired it. That was because in the 60's, other countries were selling our guns back to us. Colt wasn't too thrilled to have to compete against the 1911's that they had made during WWII.

As far as foreign surplus goes, import companies have contacts in other countries looking for stuff. They come across surplus by many means. Sometimes they have to look for old war reserve stuck in a warehouse and almost forgotten about. Sometimes a foreign country is going to decommission old arms and the importer has to convince them to surplus them instead to them. It can get pretty shady sometimes. They have to convince military leaders to sell the arms and sometimes that comes with conditions like hiring that leader's soldiers as armed guards for the armored train to carry them to the port.

 

[Machodoc]

The CMP has examined the M1's in the ROK and said that they are not interested. As a result, they were sold commercially.

All great info, Ken, but I'm curious about your source for this. Not saying it isn't true, but I have a hard time envisioning that the CMP would turn down any M1s if all that would be involved to get them back was shipping costs. People would snap up bargain Garands for parts, if nothing else, in a heartbeat.

 

[ken792]

All great info, Ken, but I'm curious about your source for this. Not saying it isn't true, but I have a hard time envisioning that the CMP would turn down any M1s if all that would be involved to get them back was shipping costs. People would snap up bargain Garands for parts, if nothing else, in a heartbeat.

There are tons of threads on the CMP Forums about this, because everyone asks about the ROK M1's over and over again. What I remember reading was that they were in terrible enough shape that the CMP did not want them. There is a thread somewhere on the "Ask Orest" sub forum where I recall him saying that they've sent CMP agents to the ROK to inspect them and they decided they didn't want them

The CMP is still combing other sources, like Turkey. As mentioned, they just got 7k back from Turkey. The general condition is described as worse than the 173k that came back from Greece in 2009. We gave Turkey something like 330k M1's, and while a number were destroyed during the Klinton administration, many more surely remain. Hopefully those will be returned in years to come.

 

[psoyring]

In the case of the Mosins, the dissolving of the USSR meant the countries where they were stored now owned those rifles. By the time that happened it was obvious that WW3 was not going to be fought with small arms, and Ukraine has very strict firearms ownership rules, so many wound up here.

Val still does the shows, I see him at Chantilly and most recently at a Martinsburg WV show, since that is where he is now based.

 

[Threeband]

...The general condition is described as worse than the 173k that came back from Greece in 2009...

Didn't the Greek returns come home in 2007?

I got mine in early '08.





By the way, I think it was probably Bannerman who got the war surplus business going, starting with Civil War surplus, and later Spanish American War surplus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollepel_Island

 

[ken792]

Didn't the Greek returns come home in 2007?

I got mine in early '08.

Probably, I don't remember the date. I just remember reading the GCA article about them unpacking and sorting them. They could have come in waves, who knows.

 

[Sundancer]

First of all, thank you to all who responded, very interesting, I searched on the web some of the names, dealers, places, etc. after reading the posts. great stuff here!

what is the general view of the old Springfield 30-06 service rifles - meaning are they desirable from a collector's standpoint, are they god shooters and do they come up frequently as surplus rifles? I want to try to target a US rifle as part of my collection and since the M1 Garand's seem to be rather pricy - is this the best of the rest in US service rifles? Not interested in anything post M1 Garand.

Thanks Again!

 

[ken792]

First of all, thank you to all who responded, very interesting, I searched on the web some of the names, dealers, places, etc. after reading the posts. great stuff here!

what is the general view of the old Springfield 30-06 service rifles - meaning are they desirable from a collector's standpoint, are they god shooters and do they come up frequently as surplus rifles? I want to try to target a US rifle as part of my collection and since the M1 Garand's seem to be rather pricy - is this the best of the rest in US service rifles? Not interested in anything post M1 Garand.

Thanks Again!

Buy a Service Grade M1 Garand from the CMP ($625 plus $25 shipping in a free hard case). It will be cheaper than buying a Springfield at a gun show. Right now, only HRA Service Grades are available. They are predicting late June being when SA Service Grades come back in stock.

But if you want a Springfield 03 as well, get one. They are great rifles. Just do your homework and then go deal hunting at gun shows and on the CMP Forums.