U.S. Military May Be Shutting down the sale of M855/SS109 from Lake City to the Public

[cantstop]

Be careful. I searched on "federal 5.56 ammo can 420" and hit a couple of sites with "federal" or "federal ammo" in their name selling it for under $200. They are obviously bogus. That was the price at Walmart before the pandemic while they were still selling the stuff.

The street price now is $1/rd. Here's the real deal for XM193 from federal:

Buy American Eagle Rifle for USD 432.99 | Federal Ammunition

Shopping for the American Eagle Rifle - Learn more about the latest American Eagle Rifle and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

 

[lazarus]

I understand that it's not really AP. I was just making the analogy that it's not illegal, but it's also not commercially available.

So the M995 is banned under the ATF AP handgun ammo thing from a few years back? I know 7n6 was banned from import and I thought the ban was just an import ban. I don't really have a use for it so didn't follow the regs, but this recent M855 move by Biden has me curious.

Okay, so here is the deal.

The federal ban, is manufacture of it for sale or import (if you have the license, you can make it for a government entity). Anything that was already made is totally fine to sell. BUT CHECK YOUR STATE LAW. As you can guess, the usual states ban armor piercing or incendiary (including tracer) ammunition.

Maryland does not ban it interestingly enough.

Another controversy is that the ban is really on the projectile itself, not the ammunition. There isn't great clarity on that. So is it illegal to take an M2 AP 165gr .308 and load it in to a .30-06 case? You just "manufactured" ammunition. Everything I can find says that is fine. I don't want to be the test case, but I am also not all that worried if I take some of the AP bullets I have laying around and load them in to .30-06 or .308 cases. I sure as heck am not planning on doing anything illegal with them. Heck, I can't right now because the only range I am a member of bans AP, incendiary and tracer bullets. And I am not keen on violating the rules. So I couldn't work up a load.

 

[lazarus]

My dad has a few Garand clips of the black tip 30-06. Yeah, I don't think they make them anymore, and I've never seen black tip anything in 7.62 or 5.56 that the military would be using currently or for sale to the public.

Just Googled it, the only "civilian legal" black tip ammo is WWII surplus 30-06 ammo.

That isn't correct. M61 AP is legal to be purchased. You just can't buy anything made after it was banned.

The key is under federal law, all pieces of a cartridge are considered ammunition on their own. An existing bullet is already ammunition that has been manufactured. So the ban would only apply to making new ones after the fact.

The relevant statute language is

No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition

So if you are not a manufacturer or importer, you CAN sell/deliver/transfer armor piercing ammunition to another person.

Heck under the relevant law on collectors of curios and relics (FFL-03) it even clearly states that for them "licensed collector is not precluded by law from receiving or disposing of armor piercing ammunition"*

*Just a note, if you are an FFL you are required to put in your bound book any AP ammo you receive or dispose of.

Basically federal law often doesn't do much to make things YOU do as illegal unless it is in commerce (because that might be interstate) and it for SURE controls things any business might do (because almost all commerce as some nexus in interstate).

M61 AP is banned specifically. But again not for thee. Just to make it. But the projectile is already made if you are buying demilled/surplus. A manufacturer or importer MAY NOT make or bringing it in to the country and sell it to you. You could buy surplus military ammunition. Many calibers are not considered for use in a handgun.

.223 IS considered handgun ammunition by the ATF now. 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 is not considered handgun ammunition at the moment. But M61 AP and 7.62x51 SLAP rounds were specifically named as banned.

But again, possession is okay. You just can't make anything new (which means the bullets in this case).

I shall not be the test case of assembling M61 AP ammunition and giving it away/selling it (well, selling it would be ammo manufacturing without a license anyway which is a crime). And if I did happen to have an M61 projectiles, they wouldn't end up loaded into any cases marked 7.62x51mm.

 

[lazarus]

Afaik, 855a1, 995, and m2 30-06 ap (165/166gr) all use tungsten carbide as their core material. The primary difference is the 855a1 leaves the core exposed at the tip causing damage to weapon systems.

If you really want to see some craziness, we shot all of the above plus black tip .50bmg at some vehicle armor pieces....some knotted or pocked it but the thing that went through (two in a row) was 1938 dated Kraut 20x138B. That's bad news. Beware of the Lahti in the grass.

NO!

M2 AP use hardened steel. As does M61 AP.

ONLY M995/M996 use tungsten carbide. All other AP out there uses hardened steel (M855a1 wouldn't count as armor piercing anyway as it is predominantly copper by weight and the steel tip is only a small portion of the weight and it doesn't meet the definition under the jacketed definition either).

 

[lazarus]

M8

M855 is kinda junk in my opinion. M855A1 is a different animal in both construction and performance through media. That's a different rabbit hole to explore. My current understanding, someone jump in if I'm wrong, is that 855 is openly sold by .gov contract producers (overruns or just outright commercial production) and since lake city arsenal is operated by a private company (currently olin/winchester) they are welcome to make more ammo than .gov wants and sell it to us just as federal did. If this change being reported is real, this would signal a shift in that policy. What I find strange is that I am sure a contract exists for the operational period covered by the current bid and contract award. This would be a change to that contract.....shady.

855a1 has, to my knowledge, never been commercially available. I tested some and, anecdotally, it tests far better on glass, car doors, etc than it's predecessor but it still sucks in wet pack or a pork shoulder compared to other options. Some people seem hellbent to acquire the stuff "nalyevo" but I just don't see myself taking that many barrier shots with a 556 carbine. Maybe I will be wrong.

M995, afaik, hasn't been sold openly either. A buttload of israeli stuff hit the states a while back but only 07 or 10 license holders could buy it for testing and had to fill out a wad of paperwork as end users (no resale period).

The 3006 black tip is where it's at. The m995 7.62 stuff is a relatively light projectile. The 3006 is heavier and most of the projo is the good stuff. In testing, they consistently outshot m2 fmj with standard charges. They also do a number on conventional steels, especially at close range. If you really want to see something, load them up in 300rum or 30-378 wby. Other than actual vehicle armor (real stuff, not an up armored hummer) not much stops that.

Pretty much. M855 is only good in two respects. You need to shoot someone behind something hard. You need somewhat longer range than M193 can provide. It has significantly worse terminal effect on soft things you do want to get at. Basically, it can go through a cinderblock at fairly short range with a longer barrel, where as M193 can't go through a cinderblock at any range from any barrel.

M193 is better at actual armor penetration though. Higher speed trumps harder core (it is a mild steel core, not hardened in M855). The only exception would be at longer ranges of maybe 100+yds on up where M855 will be carrying a significant energy and eventually velocity advantage over M193.

Basically masonry is extremely hard/brittle and it'll break up a jacketed lead bullet impacting it and what is carried through is masonry dust and fragments that are too light to cause much damage on the other side. The mild steel core in an M855 won't break apart hitting the masonry and it has sufficient energy to carry through the backside at high velocities. IIRC, out of a 20" barrel, M855 will generally penetrate standard sized (8") cinderblocks at up to 40 meters of range. Out of the 14.5" M4 barrel it won't penetrate cinderblock at any range.

This compared to M855A1 that can penetrate a cinderblock at 100 meters from an M4. Steel penetrator is hardened (not as hard as AP, but it isn't mild steel like the M855 is. I assume it is basic quench hardened rather than the tool steel that M2/M61 use), plus it weighs about 40% more than the steel tip in M855. Of course the heavy copper base of the M855A1 also tends to stay together and aid in penetration through the cinderblock as well.

M855A1 and M80A1 should be legal for sale. I think it is just a matter of the company or two that are setup to produce it have their hands full producing it for government contracts and due to the construction, it would be too expensive for the civilian market to make sense for sales there. So all you'll see are some stuff that didn't make contract specifications getting dumped occasionally (of course also stolen government property).

Same reason you only very rarely see the 5.56 and 7.62 SOT Mk318/319 bullets hit the market (I did manage to pickup some of the 7.62 MK319 stuff awhile back). Federal I think is the only one who was making it (might be Winchester now) and they assumed, probably rightly so, the market would be small and what they are producing is likely on Gov't owned machines. So it may only be excess they can sell or stuff that doesn't meet federal contract requirements. And they probably don't want to buy/build anything specifically to make it for the civilian market at the prices they'd otherwise need to charge.

I am sure many would buy a bit of M855A1 or M80A1 at a couple of bucks a round for 5.56 and maybe $3 a round for 7.62. How many would buy thousands of rounds of it? Someone I am sure. Is it the tens of millions of rounds they'd need to sell to make it profitable?

PS IMHO I am more interested in M80A1. Not sure I'd want to pay what the asking price would be. More Mk319/some Mk318 would be nice. From what I can find for testing is it works really well. Not as good as the Mk855A1 and 80A1 for barrier/armor penetration, but it works okay for that stuff and it works REALLY well on soft targets. I've heard very good reports on people loading up Mk319 for deer hunting and getting great expansion and good penetration. I mean, it basically is a lighter weight mostly copper, hollow-point bonded bullet. So very rapid, but very controlled expansion.

 

[Bountied]

Is this the armor piercing ammo thread?

 

[AssMan]

That isn't correct. M61 AP is legal to be purchased. You just can't buy anything made after it was banned.

The key is under federal law, all pieces of a cartridge are considered ammunition on their own. An existing bullet is already ammunition that has been manufactured. So the ban would only apply to making new ones after the fact.

The relevant statute language is

No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition

So if you are not a manufacturer or importer, you CAN sell/deliver/transfer armor piercing ammunition to another person.

Heck under the relevant law on collectors of curios and relics (FFL-03) it even clearly states that for them "licensed collector is not precluded by law from receiving or disposing of armor piercing ammunition"*

*Just a note, if you are an FFL you are required to put in your bound book any AP ammo you receive or dispose of.

Basically federal law often doesn't do much to make things YOU do as illegal unless it is in commerce (because that might be interstate) and it for SURE controls things any business might do (because almost all commerce as some nexus in interstate).

M61 AP is banned specifically. But again not for thee. Just to make it. But the projectile is already made if you are buying demilled/surplus. A manufacturer or importer MAY NOT make or bringing it in to the country and sell it to you. You could buy surplus military ammunition. Many calibers are not considered for use in a handgun.

.223 IS considered handgun ammunition by the ATF now. 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 is not considered handgun ammunition at the moment. But M61 AP and 7.62x51 SLAP rounds were specifically named as banned.

But again, possession is okay. You just can't make anything new (which means the bullets in this case).

I shall not be the test case of assembling M61 AP ammunition and giving it away/selling it (well, selling it would be ammo manufacturing without a license anyway which is a crime). And if I did happen to have an M61 projectiles, they wouldn't end up loaded into any cases marked 7.62x51mm.

Thanks for this. I don't reload at the moment, but I'll keep all of this in mind.

 

[teratos]

I can easily machine tungsten projectiles, and I’m a machining idiot.

Just another ban that can’t be enforced.

I have some very large game bolt rifles that would get a chuckle out of body armor. Nobody wants to ban those (yet).

 

[GunBum]

I have a feeling that someone in the Whitehouse needs to read the contract at LC. One of the perks to get companies to bid on the contract to run the place is that they can sell production that is excess to Uncle Sam’s needs.

 

[teratos]

I have a feeling that someone in the Whitehouse needs to read the contract at LC. One of the perks to get companies to bid on the contract to run the place is that they can sell production that is excess to Uncle Sam’s needs.

 

[lazarus]

I can easily machine tungsten projectiles, and I’m a machining idiot.

Just another ban that can’t be enforced.

I have some very large game bolt rifles that would get a chuckle out of body armor. Nobody wants to ban those (yet).

It is only a ban for stuff used in handguns. You as an individual and make .50 BMG armor piercing bullets right now. You can even buy new manufactured ones. M61 and SLAP in 7.62x51 are banned by ATF determination. So is anything "AP" in .223.

Otherwise, it is anything that can be used in a handgun. The rationale with stuff that could easily penetrate kevlar vests and be shot out of a concealed weapon that was the reason for the ban. If you look at other stuff banned by name, there is a steel .25acp cartridge banned specifically by name!

 

[Bob A]

Be careful. I searched on "federal 5.56 ammo can 420" and hit a couple of sites with "federal" or "federal ammo" in their name selling it for under $200. They are obviously bogus. That was the price at Walmart before the pandemic while they were still selling the stuff.

The street price now is $1/rd. Here's the real deal for XM193 from federal:

Buy American Eagle Rifle for USD 432.99 | Federal Ammunition

Shopping for the American Eagle Rifle - Learn more about the latest American Eagle Rifle and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

Found some yesterday at 300Blackoutclub.com for $519/1000 +shipping, Lake City 62 gr. It's disappeared from ammoseek, but the site seems to still have it available. They bumped the price 30 bucks though. Pretty sure it won't last.

 

[John from MD]

I think I'll just leave this here.

'We shall go on to the end. We shall fight on the land, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, We shall never surrender'.

An American Patriot's honoring a great British Patriot.

 

[Sirex]

Meh, you guys don't need that high powered assault ammunition anyways. Just use Grandpa's old .30-06 blacktip hunting ammo he brought home from the war.

 

[teratos]

Meh, you guys don't need that high powered assault ammunition anyways. Just use Grandpa's old .30-06 blacktip hunting ammo he brought home from the war.

Yep. That’s it!

 

[Blacksmith101]

Meh, you guys don't need that high powered assault ammunition anyways. Just use Grandpa's old .30-06 blacktip hunting ammo he brought home from the war.

CMP was selling .30-06 Black Tip a few years ago. They also had some linked 5.56 with every fifth round was Red Tip. You just need to keep your eyes open for good deals and when you see them be ready to take advantage before they disappear.

Hatchers Notebook : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Hatchers Notebook

archive.org

 

[Blacksmith101]

June 17 phone call to DOD regarding Lake City ammo.

 

[ironpony]

CMP was selling .30-06 Black Tip a few years ago. They also had some linked 5.56 with every fifth round was Red Tip. You just need to keep your eyes open for good deals and when you see them be ready to take advantage before they disappear.

Hatchers Notebook : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Hatchers Notebook

archive.org

Penetration of 32 ½’ of oak! I had no idea. I believe old war ships were made of 24 inch beams of oak to repel cannon balls.

and so my post is not too far off topic I don’t think the administration has the balls (cannon) to attempt this.

 

[DC-W]

White House claims nothing is changing. Larry Keane of the NSSF who first warned of a possible change says, “Lying!”

 

[lazarus]

White House claims nothing is changing. Larry Keane of the NSSF who first warned of a possible change says, “Lying!”

I have no doubt someone there hasn’t considered it. But I am 99% sure he is trying to drum up an audience for himself on this one.

The only bit of truth to it seems to be they were considering a contract cut to lake city. Not a ban on sales to the public. Let alone any kind of actual ammo ban.

In theory banning M855 could maybe be under executive purview instructing the attorney general to make the determination that it is armor piercing under the definition. Not sure it could meet the definition though as the steel penetrator is less than half the composition of the bullet by volume and weight.

But the president can’t ban the sale of ammo. They could in theory modify the contract to prevent Winchester from selling excess. But it would have to go through a contract modification and Winchester would need to agree to the change. I highly doubt they would without anything in return as it represents voluntarily giving up millions of dollars in revenue for them for nothing. The federal government can’t unilaterally change the contract.

Without a contract modification the only way they could stop them is if the contract already has that provision in it. Which it might. But I suspect there are clauses related to federal need and such forth that would be easy to dispute if the government isn’t increasing their order to cover everything that can be produced.

This is the same White House who has been saying for weeks there is nothing more they can do and they’ve hit the limit of executive authority. They could maybe mess with the LC contract, but a ban on ammo? They can’t do.