Transport/storage of loaded long gun in vehicle

[benton0311]

Since the other two active threads are pertaining to the open and/or concealed carry of long guns I figured I post this separately. I did a somewhat thorough search and all of the previous posts on the topic seem to be contradictory or quote laws that may not apply to the act of simply transporting and storing.

From what I've gathered so far, there is absolutely no problem storing and transporting a loaded, unregulated long gun in the state of MD except for designated areas that are essentially gun free zones.

Montgomery County and possibly some others have local ordinances that prohibit the storage and transport of long guns in vehicles but these are unenforceable they would be in violation of state preemption.

Furthermore, I've read that the regulation requiring that they be unloaded pertains to hunting and is only limited to that activity. There is no law that requires that unregulated long guns be kept unloaded.

So from what I've read it seems that it is perfectly legal to keep a loaded long gun in your vehicle anywhere in the state of MD as long as you're not in one of the exclusion zones and can otherwise legally own the gun.

I know that keeping the gun unloaded would draw less scrutiny but having it loaded doesn't appear to be illegal.

Does that sound correct?

 

[hvymax]

From what I read it would be legal even on the seat next to you.

 

[Inigoes]

Benton,

The best bet would be for a win in Woollard, so that Gansler's remarks will be more helpful, when/if you decide to be the test case.

The dilemma is 4-208. You don't have to be participating, just within 1000 ft of a demonstration to be arrested. It could be as simple as stuck in traffic.

 

[mvee]

If you have a firearm at a protest isn't it only a crime to have it there if you do not leave when asked by a police officer?

 

[benton0311]

Inigoes, I absolutely agree on you with that. A win in Woollard would assure the right to carry legally. But what I'm looking at now are the existing laws currently on the books and as of right now it appears that carrying a loaded long gun in the car is perfectly legal, regardless of Woollard or any other current or recent cases.

Not trying to be the test case or push the limits by keeping my AR or Mini-30 (unregulated) sitting in the passenger seat. I'm thinking more along the lines of a shotgun in the trunk or in the back of an SUV in a bag, out of sight and out of mind. Either way the unregulated gun can be there and as the current laws are currently written it appears it may be loaded as well.

I read 4-208 a few times before and there is one part that I think would cover you:

b) Prohibited.-

(1) This subsection does not apply to a law enforcement officer.

(2) A person may not have a firearm in the person's possession or on or about the person at a demonstration in a public place or in a vehicle that is within 1,000 feet of a demonstration in a public place after:

(i) the person has been advised by a law enforcement officer that a demonstration is occurring at the public place; and

(ii) the person has been ordered by the law enforcement officer to leave the area of the demonstration until the person disposes of the firearm.

(c) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 1 year or a fine not exceeding $1,000 or both.

The way I read that is that if somehow you found your vehicle within 1000ft of a demonstration it seems that you have to be given notice of what's going on and given a chance to leave the area. Seems fair to me.

Plus, I don't know how often people really run into demonstrations. Aside from that you would just have to stay out of the exclusion zones.

 

[Inigoes]

Not trying to be the test case or push the limits by keeping my AR or Mini-30 (unregulated) sitting in the passenger seat. I'm thinking more along the lines of a shotgun in the trunk or in the back of an SUV in a bag, out of sight and out of mind. Either way the unregulated gun can be there and as the current laws are currently written it appears it may be loaded as well.

Yeah, I tend to take a long gun for a ride from time to time, but I'm primarily in rural environments.

The main problem comes from the more urban areas, where everyone with a stigma yells gun.

YMMV

 

[Markp]

You have it slightly backwards as non-regulated firearms do not have the protection of state pre-emption and only REGULATED firearms are so protected by state law.

If you are going to carry a long gun and prefer to have it loaded, I would carry a "regulated" long gun for a number of reasons.

1. Protected with state preemption.
2. Clearly my "assault weapon" is not a hunting weapon.
3. The law is clear on the transportation of "regulated" firearms and does not change based on jurisdiction.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

 

[benton0311]

You have it slightly backwards as non-regulated firearms do not have the protection of state pre-emption and only REGULATED firearms are so protected by state law.

If you are going to carry a long gun and prefer to have it loaded, I would carry a "regulated" long gun for a number of reasons.

1. Protected with state preemption.
2. Clearly my "assault weapon" is not a hunting weapon.
3. The law is clear on the transportation of "regulated" firearms and does not change based on jurisdiction.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

That is only in reference to the part of the preemption law regarding the exclusion areas such as schools, etc. For unregulated firearms, counties can make laws governing those areas. Regulated firearms are omitted from the part on state preemption that allows counties to make those laws.

Otherwise, the state of MD reserves the right to make all other laws in regards to firearms. If I recall, not long ago Montgomery County attempted to restrict ammunition sales by mail and this was found to be in violation of the law on state preemption.

I'll have to dig up the exact wording, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[benton0311]

§4–209.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, the State preempts the right of a county, municipal corporation, or special taxing district to regulate the purchase, sale, taxation, transfer, manufacture, repair, ownership, possession, and transportation of:
(1) a handgun, rifle, or shotgun; and
(2) ammunition for and components of a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
(b) (1) A county, municipal corporation, or special taxing district may regulate the purchase, sale, transfer, ownership, possession, and transportation of the items listed in subsection (a) of this section:
(i) with respect to minors;
(ii) with respect to law enforcement officials of the subdivision; and
(iii) except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection, within 100 yards of or in a park, church, school, public building, and other place of public assembly.

Still trying to dig up the part on regulated weapons but I think that's another part of the law that says only the state can make laws on regulated weapons with no powers given to local governments

 

[Inigoes]

Only relates to handguns, not long guns
Montgomery County v. Atlantic Guns, 489 A.2d 1114 (Md. 1985).

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=54444&page=5

 

[benton0311]

From LCAV (anti gun group but actually not a bad source for references on gun laws since they like them so much):

"In addition, under Md. Code Ann., Pub. Safety § 5-101(p), handguns and assault weapons are defined as "regulated firearms." Maryland preempts the right of any local jurisdiction to regulate the possession (§ 5-133(a)), sale (§ 5-104), or transfer (§ 5-134(a)) of these firearms."


§5–133.
(a) This section supersedes any restriction that a local jurisdiction in the State imposes on the possession by a private party of a regulated firearm, and the State preempts the right of any local jurisdiction to regulate the possession of a regulated firearm.


So,

4–209 preempts local governments from making gun laws except in respect to minors, their own LEOs, and within 100 yards of a place of public assembly

5-133 is a separate law that preempts the right of any local government to make any laws regulating the possession of regulated weapons

These two together is what enables local governments to make local ordinances on unregulated guns in regards to places of public assembly but eliminates their ability for any of their laws to cover regulated weapons.

 

[semper000]

You have it slightly backwards as non-regulated firearms do not have the protection of state pre-emption and only REGULATED firearms are so protected by state law.

If you are going to carry a long gun and prefer to have it loaded, I would carry a "regulated" long gun for a number of reasons.

1. Protected with state preemption.
2. Clearly my "assault weapon" is not a hunting weapon.
3. The law is clear on the transportation of "regulated" firearms and does not change based on jurisdiction.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

Kinda silly when you think about it. With all of Marylands complicated gun laws it makes you wonder how this hasn't been squashed as well.

"Have a loaded AR in your car, hey no problem but buy god you better not be shooting at any deer or squirrels while in your car from the road"

We have all these laws written over the years that intersect each other on different paths.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

This stuff puts me in a mood like when I get up and haven't had my coffee yet.
What a pain in the ass, to have to disect and interpret a bunch of asinine, contradictory laws. It's harder than the tax code. Problem is, we have good intent, and are trying our best to understand this crap, so that we don't get in trouble for protecting ourselves against the very people who ignore these laws.

As much as I would LOVE to see us get shall-issue here, if we do ever, it will be buried under so many regulations and sub-regulations that I wonder if it will matter at all.


MH

 

[benton0311]

I was thinking the exact same thing about how asinine the laws are and how only honest citizens care to follow them. As a group, it just shows you how much gun owners like us are the perfect law-abiding citizens since we're that concerned with following laws.

On the bright side, I think the laws as they currently stand look good for having a loaded long gun in your vehicle for emergency/protection purposes as long as you're not hunting. Ask most people in the state as well as most LEOs about transport of long guns and you will almost always get quoted the federal FOPA guidelines. They never realize that only covers transport across state lines.

I have always been told by friends, family, police, and even dealers at gun shows that the weapon has to be inaccessible in the vehicle and ammunition kept in a separate area. This is not and never was the case. It's still not where we want to be in terms of shall issue carry or confirmed protection of rifle carry but it's good to know.

I won't be pushing the limits by keeping a loaded shotgun sitting in the passenger seat or my M4 wedged next to my leg like I do overseas but it's nice to know that a loaded "truck gun" is legit.

Anybody ever mount a gun rack in the front of a 3-series? I might be the first.

 

[Inigoes]

Reviewing the MD laws, basically sums up this thought:

The difference between the criminal/convict and the law abiding citizen

the criminal/convict got caught

 

[ThatIsAFact]

loaded long guns in vehicles

The question of whether there is a general statewide prohibition on carrying a non-concealed and loaded long gun, in a motor vehicle, has been hashed out in several past threads on this forum, perhaps most recently about a year ago in this thread:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=701522#post701522

I have argued, as a purely academic matter, that there is no such general prohibition in state law, or at least none that meets constitutional requirements for fair warning (i.e., clarity). The prohibition usually cited is buried in the hunting code, and it contains no exception for law enforcement officers. So either it is limited to contexts which at least arguably entail hunting, or there may be a lot of police officers violating the law.

However, there are apparently plenty of people who disagree with my theory, including some people involved in law enforcement. I personally would not carry a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle, nor recommend that anyone do it. Nevertheless, no one has yet produced any court decision in which this hunting statute has been interpreted and applied to obtain a conviction for carrying a loaded long gun in a vehicle, in an urban setting far removed from any possible allegation of hunting activity, and I remain skeptical that any such conviction (if obtained) would survive judicial scrutiny on appeal.

 

[benton0311]

ThatIsAFact, I just read up on your link and some of the past threads. Thanks for the info, I must have messed up my search using screwy search terms.

I definitely think there could be issues with local LE as far as long guns being loaded regardless of legality. Many probably don't even know about the difference between MD laws and the FOPA and then there's counties such as Montgomery who have their own laws that violate state preemption.

 

[sykesville]

This stuff puts me in a mood like when I get up and haven't had my coffee yet.
What a pain in the ass, to have to disect and interpret a bunch of asinine, contradictory laws. It's harder than the tax code. Problem is, we have good intent, and are trying our best to understand this crap, so that we don't get in trouble for protecting ourselves against the very people who ignore these laws.

As much as I would LOVE to see us get shall-issue here, if we do ever, it will be buried under so many regulations and sub-regulations that I wonder if it will matter at all.


MH

Could not have been stated any better!

 

[jonnyl]

Could not have been stated any better!

Have you been trying to think of a way to say it better for three years?

 

[CrazySanMan]

When I was younger, probably around 1991, I was in the back of a van of a friend of a friend with my friend and a bunch of guys he knew but I didn't. One of them had a .22 rifle and was taking shots at signs and stuff as we drove. Long story short, we got nailed by the cops and I got charged with, among other things, possessing a loaded firearm in a vehicle.

Since I was stuck as a passenger and everyone said in their statements that I didn't participate my charges were placed on STET and then expunged a year later. But I was charged with possession of a loaded firearm in a vehicle for having a loaded .22 rifle in the van.

I don't know if the laws have changed since then, but in 1991 you could not carry a loaded firearm of any type in a vehicle.