Training: Mil vs Cop vs Civilian

[Gundahar]

Its that time of year again--time for me to consider a carbine class!

But looking at the gear requirements also got me thinking. The load out for a carbine class is very influenced by military trainers--chest rigs, camel back water supply, first aid kit. All great things, but how often do I really get my load out strapped on? So far only for the classes themselves.

It seems to me that what each class of shooter needs is different enough to focus classes, or even a whole training regimen on the specific needs.

For example, take a shoot house. Most of these are mil, or swat style "clearings" of a house. But for 99% of the civilian world, the reality is that you will be defending the house, not clearing it. You don't have the initiative, you are going to have to react and go with most of the advantages of the encounter not on your side--360 threat, have to fumble for the firearm out of a safe (for most of us), likely middle of the night intruder, etc. But you should have a home turf advantage, and defending has some perks as well.

But who trains this way?

Again, not to knock what is out there--I am very happy to get back out and train some more (AJ I am looking at you here), and frankly I need it. But it seems that what a typical civvy like myself needs is:
1) Law lesson
2) Draw and engage--especially when approached from the rear, or by a crowd
3) Home defense--kind of an "anti-clearing" exercise
4) Of course basic firearm proficiency--this is the easy part.

(A lot of these could not be conducted safely with real guns and live ammo, of course.)

And there is always the elephant in the room--physical fitness is the core of all .mil and police training programs



Gundahar

 

[ProShooter]

You have brought up some excellent points - ones that we have tried to introduce into our training classes. If you are going into battle, you are going to be all kitted up with 800 pounds of necessary crap. In a home defense situation, you are probably going to have your pistol / carbine / shotgun, and maybe, just maybe some spare ammo at hand (mag, speedloader, etc.)

Real world defensive firearms training "should be" based on dancing with the one you brought. While we like for our students to have 300 rounds, minimum for classes, we know that this number is just for building proficiency through repetition. That is why instructors really need to stress defensively accurate shot placement, and making every shot count. The goal being to complete your objective within the limitations of your gun, your gear and yourself at any given moment.

 

[3rdRcn]

If you take one of my personal protection outside the home classes or a wear and carry two day class you would learn the things you desire in relation to a handgun with the exception of clearing your house. There are also a few of the instructors on here that give a fighting with your gun class that are very much qualified to teach you what you are looking for. A fighting with your handgun class may not necessarily cover the legal aspects you are looking for though.

The difference in the specific class I mentioned is that a good instructor hires a lawyer or other legal professional to answer the "legal" questions in a PPOTH class while others will cut corners and think they are qualified to give that information. I also hire a lawyer for my wear and carry class to ensure that my students are getting the correct information about Maryland and federal laws.

Room clearing is a skill that can not be mastered in a few hours and takes much repetition to do it and be capable of keeping yourself alive and even then it is a maybe imho. Stay put in your safe room and call the police, if the intruder happens to come to your safe room then you have the tactical advantage and not him.

 

[Blaster229]

Room clearing is a skill that can not be mastered in a few hours and takes much repetition to do it and be capable of keeping yourself alive and even then it is a maybe imho. Stay put in your safe room and call the police, if the intruder happens to come to your safe room then you have the tactical advantage and not him.

Well said.
I was going to chime in on this too. If you have your family in a room with you, meaning a bedroom or "safe room" that has a door and not the living room or great room, then stay put. You have a position of dominance (no threat at your back ) and you have that wonderful fatal funnel of a bedroom door for them to come through.

Going after family members in other rooms will not be done by "clearing the house". Just way too much to get into typing here.

 

[Biggfoot44]

One day's training in building clearing , convinces you " holy crap , I really don't want to do this for real by myself. Or with ad hoc partners " .

Seriously the back of my mind keep runing thru what I'd do if I were the BG , and it always came out 10:1 probability of taking out the GG's .

 

[Chris]

As a civilian with no military back ground, only some combat handgun shooting over the years and hunting, I have received training from a couple of the IPs here on the Forum. While they taught more Mil/LEO style shooting and weapons handling, I found that these skills work in the real civilian world. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your weapons handling skills are already learned, I thought that also going in, I found that under extreme pressure you will fumble and forget and make really stupid mistakes. Malfunction drills along with room clearing become very useful under the stress of an attack. I attended one series of classes where they stressed pressure shooting, having the students do PT numerous times during the training session, this would stress you out as if in a home invasion. That's when find how good/prepared you really are. So just because a training course look like it's a Mil/LEO style, civilians can walk away with some extra skills that may save your life some day. Chris

PS: As for all that gear some come to the class wearing like you stated that's not real life for civilian. I trained with my normal EDC weapon, holster and extra mag pouch. When I took a carbine courses I added one AR mag holder on my belt. I was at one class where one fellow had just everything you could buy from a tactical store, it was a hot day and he almost bought an ambo ride. The most important piece of gear I needed was an open mind and a willingness to learn. Chris

 

[Huckleberry]

Everyone is always oriented on the Offense and fail to understand the necessity of sound Defensive tactics, including the .mil oriented trainers.

With sound tactics, defenders have a tactical advantage of 3:1 with hasty fighting positions. Meaning you need 3 attackers for every defender. With prepared, fortified positions and defensive plans like interlocking fields of fire, heavy weapons and pyrotechnics then the tactical ratio can increase to 8:1 in the real world.

For those just wanting to defend home and hearth, we need not just a safe room but to make it more difficult for an intruder or intruders to gain access to the home. Everybody focuses on entry door, windows and alarm systems to do the job but those can be quickly breached and bypassed.

You need to set up defensive perimeters in your home so you can control the flow and access in the home. Jeff Cooper had some nice ideas regading home defense like limiting hallway access with an internal security gate. Think door size gate with a remote release at the top of the hallway leading to the bedrooms. Becomes a chokepoint for any intruder, even professional ones with dedicated equipment.
It also provides you space and reaction time to any threat. Another idea is better internal doors instead of these flimsy hollow core doors found in many houses.

Just a few thoughts for now, this should be a very interesting thread.

 

[Blaster229]

I have spent time training people with their pistols who "lack" a little something. After spending some time with them at the range, the problem is not so much with their actual basics of shooting, but their confidence.
I have coached timid people with decent skills into changing their mindset as to why they are actually shooting. Once you drive home the fact that those cute, clean little groups mean squat, they finally understand. Once they understood EXACTLY why and what they they will be doing in a self defense shoot, they get better.
It sounds like I make it easy, but I have seen people change.
The right mind + understanding point shooting = all the difference.

 

[ProShooter]

I have spent time training people with their pistols who "lack" a little something. After spending some time with them at the range, the problem is not so much with their actual basics of shooting, but their confidence.
I have coached timid people with decent skills into changing their mindset as to why they are actually shooting. Once you drive home the fact that those cute, clean little groups mean squat, they finally understand. Once they understood EXACTLY why and what they they will be doing in a self defense shoot, they get better.
It sounds like I make it easy, but I have seen people change.
The right mind + understanding point shooting = all the difference.

+1

More defensive shooting/accuracy, less target shooting/accuracy.

 

[Gundahar]

I'll look for some defensive shooting classes, thanks guys.

I might need MAG40 for the legal aspect, but honestly given that this is MD--its kind of tough to fly out of state to attend a class covering concealed carry law MD would really just be about home invasions for the vast majority of us.

In the meantime, I still think getting into decent shape is the most critical aspect to consider when preparing for any type of defensive encounter. Luckily I can work on that myself. :-)


Gundahar

 

[Chris]

As for Maryland CCW laws, I met a young lady who has made part of her law firm's focus on firearm laws, trusts and estate planning. Brittany Stouffer of Stouffer Law in Towson. One of the firm attorneys has a real good handle on the CCW laws and appeal process, Nathan Siegel, has been in front of the board. Brittany is avid shooter also so she understands. Chris

Not trying to highjack just making mention

 

[smg1231]

Despite being active duty USAF aircrew, I am still most likely to use a handgun in a defensive situation. My limited training time/budget/resources go into training with that weapon system. Training to use a carbine at CQB distances does not fit my training dogma.

I believe too many people are now training like they are high speed CQB door kickers, when the chances of using that skill are much smaller than an on the street/low light encounter. I admit carbine training is fun, and I learned a lot about running a carbine. However, if I am concealed carrying, defending my home, or walking around a base in AFG I will be employing a handgun for defense. The best training I have ever had was force-on-force training with pistols/marker rounds.

 

[Tom Perroni]

Here is my $0.2

And....that may be all its worth!

I think people are missing the point about CQB/Room Clearing Training!

1. I am almost 100% sure I am the only IP that owns a live fire and SIMS shoot house on MD Shooters. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

2. it’s not about room clearing as much as it is about moving and shooting with someone shooting back at you! That is invaluable training all that square range stuff goes right out the window….and you better be able to manipulate your firearm. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

3. It is 100% the closest you will ever come to actually getting into a real gunfight. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

4. People can not teach what they don't know..........So PPOTH may be a good starting point but that is all it is. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

5. You can NOT learn anything well in a couple of hours! But a good Instructor gives you the tools to practice and advises you to seek further training. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

6. I see people use the term LEO/MIL trainer????? Let help you out just because somebody was or is a LEO or Mil that does not make them a trainer. Start vetting some of theses people they may be good folks however what is the true nature of their background. More than two thirds of the Instructors I come across embellish the credentials they have or often don’t have. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

7. We have a ton of Instructors on this web site! Some are good and some are not so good. Who teaches full time?......Who makes a living doing this? That is not to say just because someone does this part time they are not good. However like everything in life consider the source and vet your instructor. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

8. All training is valuable……some class you learn how to do things and in some classes you learn how not to do things. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

9. What I teach is a way not the way! Shoot, Move, Communicate!

10. Opinions are like ass holes everyone’s got one and they all stink! Including mine! This is NOT a rant about Instructors….but more about training. Shoot, Move, Communicate!

 

[Chasbo00]

Here is an article I like that touches on this subject:

Thoughts on Instruction and Conflict

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/thoughts-on-instruction-and-conflict/27734/

 

[hogarth]

Despite being active duty USAF aircrew, I am still most likely to use a handgun in a defensive situation. My limited training time/budget/resources go into training with that weapon system. Training to use a carbine at CQB distances does not fit my training dogma.

I believe too many people are now training like they are high speed CQB door kickers, when the chances of using that skill are much smaller than an on the street/low light encounter. I admit carbine training is fun, and I learned a lot about running a carbine. However, if I am concealed carrying, defending my home, or walking around a base in AFG I will be employing a handgun for defense. The best training I have ever had was force-on-force training with pistols/marker rounds.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I signed up for 5 classes this year and made sure 4 of the 5 were handgun based. Why? Because unlike the Chipotle crew, I don't tend to stroll around with a slung AR. But I often have a pistol on or near me.

Regarding the OPs comment about gear, I would say this (and I am borrowing a bit from what Steve Fisher said during his Sentinel Concepts class I took in April): if you show up to class kitted up like a Seal and your response to the question "what do you use your AR for?" is "home defense", lose that shit. Instead, run the class with your AR and a mag in each of your back pockets.

In my case, my rifles are always locked up, so if I have time to grab one, I also have time for the chest rig, thigh holster, and camelbak. It means the shit hit the fan and let's get it on.

My $.02 from a bit of a training junkie.

 

[Gundahar]

Don't get me wrong. I do think that all training is valuable (and likely fun).

But if were to list out what I think a realistic civilian preperation program would be, it would something like this:

1) Mandatory physical fitness. Must pass some level of personalized fitness before you can move on.
a) Retest periodically

2) Law lesson -- how to stay out of trouble while you stay out of trouble, so to speak.
I guess Mag 40 the closest we have? MD sucks hard here because of lack of CC legalization, however you can expect a legal aftermath for ANY self defense incident these days, so I am seeing this as a very important part of the package. Its the age where your mugger is likely to sue you instead of/as well as see jail time!!!

3) Basic Close Quarters realities. Years of Gracie Ju-Jitsu not required, just a fundamental familiarity with what can, and likely will, happen when you are up close.
4) Weapons training (pistol basics)

Pistol I see as the overwhelmingly most likely civilian defensive arm, and its also the hardest to get proficient with (imo).
5) Weapons training (carbine, advanced pistol, shoot house, club/knife, etc)
Not the likeliest of civilian self-defense options, but individuals will have different interests here. I doubt the 70 year olds will do a whole lot of advanced knife training, but a 20 year old landscaper may find it more practical than any amount of pistol training.

You can see this is an inside to out progression. Anyone in a .mil or police "serious training" mode will have already gone through mandatory physical fitness + the CQB basics. It's built in and assumed--but not so much for the civilians.
Police and mil also have some expectation of being in a team, while a civvy is likely to be alone against a group. Ugh on the tactical implications of that. Also why I think that weaponry is mandatory, even if you are built like Tank Abbott.


Gundahar

 

[hogarth]

Don't get me wrong. I do think that all training is valuable (and likely fun).

But if were to list out what I think a realistic civilian preperation program would be, it would something like this:

1) Mandatory physical fitness. Must pass some level of personalized fitness before you can move on.
a) Retest periodically

2) Law lesson -- how to stay out of trouble while you stay out of trouble, so to speak.
I guess Mag 40 the closest we have? MD sucks hard here because of lack of CC legalization, however you can expect a legal aftermath for ANY self defense incident these days, so I am seeing this as a very important part of the package. Its the age where your mugger is likely to sue you instead of/as well as see jail time!!!

3) Basic Close Quarters realities. Years of Gracie Ju-Jitsu not required, just a fundamental familiarity with what can, and likely will, happen when you are up close.
4) Weapons training (pistol basics)

Pistol I see as the overwhelmingly most likely civilian defensive arm, and its also the hardest to get proficient with (imo).
5) Weapons training (carbine, advanced pistol, shoot house, club/knife, etc)
Not the likeliest of civilian self-defense options, but individuals will have different interests here. I doubt the 70 year olds will do a whole lot of advanced knife training, but a 20 year old landscaper may find it more practical than any amount of pistol training.

You can see this is an inside to out progression. Anyone in a .mil or police "serious training" mode will have already gone through mandatory physical fitness + the CQB basics. It's built in and assumed--but not so much for the civilians.
Police and mil also have some expectation of being in a team, while a civvy is likely to be alone against a group. Ugh on the tactical implications of that. Also why I think that weaponry is mandatory, even if you are built like Tank Abbott.


Gundahar

I agree. Criminals use the element of surprise. No one is going to yell across the Safeway parking lot for your wallet! They are going to be up close, perhaps using a ruse of some sort, and then spring their surprise. So, being in good enough shape to battle a bit and knowing how to deploy your handgun under duress would probably be of a higher priority than drinking a six pack every night after a day of donut eating, taking a carbine class on a weekend, and declaring yourself ready for all comers.