This happened today, 03/27/2014....CONFISCATION

[Rack&Roll]

When the average citizen starts to see state law as full of retroactive tricks and traps, the respect for all laws will suffer. The midget dictators in Annapolis still do not get that. They should take a field trip to Connecticut.

 

[Second Amendment]

I think you are mistaken. A PBJ is not a guilty plea nor finding. The Defendant is simply agreeing to abide by terms of probation - before a judgement is made.

And if it's expunged, it shouldn't be considered at all.

 

[rob b]

And if it's expunged, it shouldn't be considered at all.

are MSP using expunged pbj cases to grab guns or deny a new purchase ?

seems strange and illegal to me if so

 

[bbgunn177]

So MSP is thinking out side the box.

If I were a person with a possible problematic PBJ, I think I would strongly consider even if it was a PITA breaking down any regulated weapon into it's regulated part and if the knock came hand over only said regulated part/item. I much rather replace a $50 to $200 lower out of state after I moved than a complete $900 to $2000 rifle. I recognize not all regulated items are easily disassembled, but for the ones that are, that what I would do.

I would guess that MSP doesn't wait while you take off optics, lights, upgraded triggers, pre ban 30, 20 and 15 to 11 round mags etc. So why lose what you don't have too.

 

[marte616]

tickets?

so.....a PBJ for a traffic violation (speeding) will not get me a visit from the goon squad, right?

 

[D1jinx]

So MSP is thinking out side the box.

If I were a person with a possible problematic PBJ, I think I would strongly consider even if it was a PITA breaking down any regulated weapon into it's regulated part and if the knock came hand over only said regulated part/item. I much rather replace a $50 to $200 lower out of state after I moved than a complete $900 to $2000 rifle. I recognize not all regulated items are easily disassembled, but for the ones that are, that what I would do.

I would guess that MSP doesn't wait while you take off optics, lights, upgraded triggers, pre ban 30, 20 and 15 to 11 round mags etc. So why lose what you don't have too.

I believe they will confiscate everything even if it is broken down. Because it is used on or with the weapon being confiscated. They are going to take anything related to it.

 

[sonicnofadz]

PA border to the north is looking more and more appealing everyday.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

so.....a PBJ for a traffic violation (speeding) will not get me a visit from the goon squad, right?

Here's the "Simmons amendment" from FSA 2013:

(B–1) (1) “CONVICTED OF A DISQUALIFYING CRIME” INCLUDES:
. (I) A CASE IN WHICH A PERSON RECEIVED PROBATION BEFORE JUDGMENT FOR A CRIME OF VIOLENCE; AND
. (II) A CASE IN WHICH A PERSON RECEIVED PROBATION BEFORE JUDGMENT IN A DOMESTICALLY RELATED CRIME AS DEFINED IN § 6–233 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ARTICLE.
. (2) “CONVICTED OF A DISQUALIFYING CRIME” DOES NOT INCLUDE A CASE IN WHICH A PERSON RECEIVED A PROBATION BEFORE JUDGMENT:
. (I) FOR ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE; OR
. (II) THAT WAS EXPUNGED UNDER TITLE 10, SUBTITLE 1 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ARTICLE.

 

[Second Amendment]

are MSP using expunged pbj cases to grab guns or deny a new purchase ?

seems strange and illegal to me if so

I think it would be illegal as an expungement means just that, it doesn't exist.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

After SB281 became law of the land, word came down from the AG's office to NOT inform those that receive a PBJ that the PBJ could and would affect their 2A rights. Kinda' like dirty pool.

And this is the dirtiest part of the dirty pool. I challenge anyone to apply this to any other laws/rights.

I hate to go back to my driving analogy, but this is like the MSP and MVA revoking, for whatever reason, your drivers license.

They know you're not allowed to drive anymore, they don't inform you of the revocation, and they allow you to keep driving. Then one day, 35 years down the road, you are pulled over for speeding.

At this point, they chuckle mightily, wring their hands with glee, and scream out we got you now. Then you're thrown in jail over something you knew nothing about.

How can they get away with not informing people? It's way beyond sneaky.

 

[fabsroman]

If the son hasn't been in any trouble since the PBJ, have him apply for an expungement. Problem solved in about 30 to 60 days. Only problem is whether the MSP is willing to hold the guns for the amount of time it takes for the expungement to go through so they can be returned to the son. If they are handguns, they can be transferred to his dad right now until the expungement goes through. If they are banned assault weapons, then he needs to get on the expungement route IMMEDIATELY and see if he can get it done in time for those banned firearms to be returned to him.

 

[Ab_Normal]

After SB281 became law of the land, ...

SB281 was never the law of the land according to the Constitution.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[fabsroman]

Maybe my memory fails me. I don't remember the Def. pleading guilty in every PBJ, but maybe they did and I was too busy beating feet out of the courtroom myself. I've put that chapter of my life on the shelf. It was fun, but now I'm done.

For a PBJ to come about, the Defendant either has to plead guilty or be found guilty. Then, during sentencing, the Judge can decide to grant a PBJ in lieu of actually entering a Guilty verdict. If the charges are dropped or the person is found Not Guilty (i.e., acquittal), then sentencing never comes about and no PBJ needs to even be considered.

 

[Ab_Normal]

For a PBJ to come about, the Defendant either has to plead guilty or be found guilty. Then, during sentencing, the Judge can decide to grant a PBJ in lieu of actually entering a Guilty verdict. If the charges are dropped or the person is found Not Guilty (i.e., acquittal), then sentencing never comes about and no PBJ needs to even be considered.

So then probation before JUDGEMENT is a misnomer?

 

[Inigoes]

So MSP is thinking out side the box.

If I were a person with a possible problematic PBJ, I think I would strongly consider even if it was a PITA breaking down any regulated weapon into it's regulated part and if the knock came hand over only said regulated part/item. I much rather replace a $50 to $200 lower out of state after I moved than a complete $900 to $2000 rifle. I recognize not all regulated items are easily disassembled, but for the ones that are, that what I would do.

I would guess that MSP doesn't wait while you take off optics, lights, upgraded triggers, pre ban 30, 20 and 15 to 11 round mags etc. So why lose what you don't have too.

Storing the firearm out of state (if you have the means), does the same thing.

 

[zoostation]

PBJ Simplified:

Probation is not given to nor is it accepted by an innocent party.
IF you agree to probation... You ARE pleading guilty with the understanding that no "Judgement" (read "Penalty") will be leveed against you, as long as you complete the probation period without another offense for which you are found guilty.


PBJ IS a self entered GUILTY finding in the eyes of Maryland Courts. The only advantage to the defendant is that they don't get jail time IF they complete the terms of the probation.

This is why the MSP can come get the guns.

RD sorry but it is not a guilty finding. That's the whole idea of a PBJ and deferred adjudication. A judgment an penalty are not the same thing in a criminal court. Their case is being adjudicated before being "judged." The "only advantage" is not that they don't get jail time. A person can plead guilty and be found guilty on their record and not have jail time.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

So then probation before JUDGEMENT is a misnomer?

Disagree.

The adjudication part is deferred or nonexistent in a PBJ case.

The person can be found guilty or admit guilt (even to a lesser charge) and is given probation before the adjudication (actual penalty on the books for the crime) is issued. In this case, the guilty finding is STRICKEN. So they are not convicted.

There's a lot between being charged and sentenced for a crime:
Charged
Indicted
Trial - from what I read in the PBJ interpretation, the PBJ stops here if a person is found guilty or admits guilt to a crime if a judge decides the situation warrants a PBJ. So things don't progress to the next step.
Conviction
Sentence

Therefore "Probation Before Judgment" (conviction/sentence) is an accurate term.

 

[Kman]

PA border to the north is looking more and more appealing everyday.

Yep. I'm 4 miles from DE.

We had a chance to move to Mesa AZ in 96. Wife really didn't want to go. I find it hard to even talk to her somedays now.

 

[fabsroman]

And this is the dirtiest part of the dirty pool. I challenge anyone to apply this to any other laws/rights.

I hate to go back to my driving analogy, but this is like the MSP and MVA revoking, for whatever reason, your drivers license.

They know you're not allowed to drive anymore, they don't inform you of the revocation, and they allow you to keep driving. Then one day, 35 years down the road, you are pulled over for speeding.

At this point, they chuckle mightily, wring their hands with glee, and scream out we got you now. Then you're thrown in jail over something you knew nothing about.

How can they get away with not informing people? It's way beyond sneaky.

Your driver's license expires every 5 years. How would you renew the driver's license if it has been suspended or revoked at the time. Pretty sure MVA Express would tell you at that point that your license is suspended or revoked. Not only that, but MVA usually mails a letter to a person that has a suspended or revoked license.

Then, even if you are pulled over on a suspended or revoked license and the reason isn't one of Failure to Appear, Contempt of Court, massive child support in arrears, you usually get off the first one with a slap on the wrist. Had a client get busted driving on suspended not once, but twice within a 30 day period. His license was suspended because he failed to go to emissions. He was busted for driving on suspended tags. Then, he never paid that fine or showed for trial. The MVA had an incorrect address on file for him. The first Assistant State's Attorney dropped the charges. The second didn't, but the judge gave him PBJ for a day and a $50 fine.

This stuff with a PBJ causing a person to be prohibited for life is complete BS compared to driving on suspended.

Not even going to get into the privilege versus right issue.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Your driver's license expires every 5 years. How would you renew the driver's license if it has been suspended or revoked at the time. Pretty sure MVA Express would tell you at that point that your license is suspended or revoked. Not only that, but MVA usually mails a letter to a person that has a suspended or revoked license.

Then, even if you are pulled over on a suspended or revoked license and the reason isn't one of Failure to Appear, Contempt of Court, massive child support in arrears, you usually get off the first one with a slap on the wrist. Had a client get busted driving on suspended not once, but twice within a 30 day period. His license was suspended because he failed to go to emissions. He was busted for driving on suspended tags. Then, he never paid that fine or showed for trial. The MVA had an incorrect address on file for him. The first Assistant State's Attorney dropped the charges. The second didn't, but the judge gave him PBJ for a day and a $50 fine.

This stuff with a PBJ causing a person to be prohibited for life is complete BS compared to driving on suspended.

Not even going to get into the privilege versus right issue.

My main point is that these folks should be notified in some way and not turned into overnight criminals.

Thank you for pointing out and poking holes in the rest of my post though.

Much appreciated.