Third Circuit upholds 2a denial for commitment

[wolfwood]

In 2005, Bucks County, Pa. man is involuntarily hospitalized after threatening suicide, putting a gun in his mouth. He's had no mental health treatment since 2006, and, in 2013, a doctor said he could safely handle firearms. Does the federal ban on gun possession by anyone who has previously been committed to a mental institution violate the man's Second Amendment rights? The Third Circuit says no.

There is now a express circuit split on this issue unless the third goes en banc. This could go to SCOTUS.

https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opina...pTZWFGUU5xaU85WXRqZFQwcWJ3NjhnTUY4Y0htdmJKR0d

 

[lowoncash]

A criminal record can be expunged under some circumstances.
I guess there is no such thing for medical records?

 

[Inigoes]

Someone who has been adjudicated as mentally defective is a very tall hill to climb to get their 2A rights back, as it is still a second class right.

We are not there yet. The 2A is not recognized past one's threshold.

 

[press1280]

In 2005, Bucks County, Pa. man is involuntarily hospitalized after threatening suicide, putting a gun in his mouth. He's had no mental health treatment since 2006, and, in 2013, a doctor said he could safely handle firearms. Does the federal ban on gun possession by anyone who has previously been committed to a mental institution violate the man's Second Amendment rights? The Third Circuit says no.

There is now a express circuit split on this issue unless the third goes en banc. This could go to SCOTUS.

https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opina...pTZWFGUU5xaU85WXRqZFQwcWJ3NjhnTUY4Y0htdmJKR0d

They could end up getting remanded by SCOTUS after NYSRPA.

 

[Docster]

Someone who has been adjudicated as mentally defective is a very tall hill to climb to get their 2A rights back, as it is still a second class right.

We are not there yet. The 2A is not recognized past one's threshold.

They have a very tall hill to climb for many things, and to follow up on a previous comment, medical records can be updated for changes in conditions but never any deletions unless shown to be in error, i.e. wrong person, wrong labs.

 

[teratos]

Someone who has been adjudicated as mentally defective is a very tall hill to climb to get their 2A rights back, as it is still a second class right.

We are not there yet. The 2A is not recognized past one's threshold.

This needs to change.

 

[Inigoes]

This needs to change.

Hopefully, by this time next year, it will.

 

[swamplynx]

Beyond the obvious constitutional infringement, think about the chilling effect this has on people who need and would otherwise seek out mental health care.

 

[Biggfoot44]

You would have to be really crazy to seek mental health treatment .

 

[Blackstar65]

Say the 30 day commitment rule is over turned. What do you do about those people with mental health issues that can not be balanced out with medication? Mental health for those that are affected by it's illnesses can an is a up and down battle. What do you do? Make them have periodic evaluations for their fitness to retain the ability to own a firearm depending on the diagnosis? Their has to be a balance to this I think.

 

[swamplynx]

You would have to be really crazy to seek mental health treatment .

Exactly

 

[swamplynx]

Say the 30 day commitment rule is over turned. What do you do about those people with mental health issues that can not be balanced out with medication? Mental health for those that are affected by it's illnesses can an is a up and down battle. What do you do? Make them have periodic evaluations for their fitness to retain the ability to own a firearm depending on the diagnosis? Their has to be a balance to this I think.

It’s a difficult question indeed. Like the notion of absolute morality, what is sane, and what is insane is in many ways up to the beholder. Some people would consider someone that owns 50 guns insane. Or 25. Or 10. Or 5. Or 2.

As I see it, unless you are adjudicated by a court as mentally ill, your rights should not be restricted. Anything less than that and we go down the same road as may-issue, where arbitrarily the government infringed on constitutional rights.

 

[Bob A]

Making it even more complex, while many are mentally ill, only a small fraction of such diagnosed individuals are at risk of doing violence to themselves or others.

So an entire group of people with a mental illness diagnosis lose their right of self-defense. A good number of people so afflicted are particularly vulnerable; where's the justice in putting them at even greater risk?

Never forget that the mental institutions in the Soviet Union were basically political prisons. Anyone who was too critical of the Party was obviously insane, and had to be removed from society lest their diseased ideas spread throughout the Masses.



Of all homicides in a given period, what percentage could be attributed to someone diagnosed with a mental illness? While I don't have figures, it's not likely to reach double digits. I view this as a minimal risk to the general population, and certainly those who are obviously troubled have been brought to the attention of the authorities, yet often ignored until too late.

So are we innocent until proven guilty, or are we judged by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, without benefit of trial?

 

[Brychan]

Here's a thought for you all, if you have a mental illness you should not own a gun. So by that reasoning if you have a mental illness that makes you want to mutilate your own sexual organs because you are having delusions that you should be another gender does that mean that you have no right to self defense. Further what about those people that think that people with this gender identity disorder are completely normal? Are they suffering some sort of mental disorder themselves? Should they be allowed to possess firearms?

Next questions what is normal? What is sane? What is the difference between a personality quirk and mental illness? Who defines reality and delusion?

 

[md_rick_o]

In 2005, Bucks County, Pa. man is involuntarily hospitalized after threatening suicide, putting a gun in his mouth. He's had no mental health treatment since 2006, and, in 2013, a doctor said he could safely handle firearms. Does the federal ban on gun possession by anyone who has previously been committed to a mental institution violate the man's Second Amendment rights? The Third Circuit says no.

There is now a express circuit split on this issue unless the third goes en banc. This could go to SCOTUS.

https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opina...pTZWFGUU5xaU85WXRqZFQwcWJ3NjhnTUY4Y0htdmJKR0d

Everyone seems to be missing the bolded part. The doc said he could safely handle firearms. Medical records can't be "expunged" but can be updated with current condition. This should be the ultimate deciding factor in this case.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

All this does is create more reasons/excuses for people not to seek help.

I'd bet there's hundreds of thousands of people in this country who could use some kind of help but refuse to go for various reasons like the 2A, career, public shame, etc.

 

[rascal]

All this does is create more reasons/excuses for people not to seek help.

I'd bet there's hundreds of thousands of people in this country who could use some kind of help but refuse to go for various reasons like the 2A, career, public shame, etc.

You are exactly right. But there are not hundreds of thousands, but tens of million of people who suffer clinical depression at some point in their lives. In fact there are theories in psychology that it is the people who never experience serious depression at some point (death of spouse, child, divorce loss of job or two in combination) maybe the ones with more serious mental health issues.

The issue is not just adjudicated as dangerous, but the gun control lobby attempting to march in any mental health illness into loss or limit of 2A rights, that make it unwise to seek counseling or treatment for even minor depression because you have no idea what a provider may diagnose. The providers have a self interest in diagnosing conditions as more severe since it opens up more treatment options, and more options paid for by insurance.

Even marriage councilors are often certified to do diagnoses and since most is paid for by health insurance, it is unwise to go to a marriage counselor as well. 25 years from now records you never saw from marriage counseling could be harming you.

 

[pcfixer]

You would have to be really crazy to seek mental health treatment .

So, Is PTSD and or Bipolar disorder qualify as mentally defective? Therefore not by the law qualify to purchase a firearm?

 

[ironpony]

Wondering if antis could expand the definition of mental status, as mentioned above, to make millions ineligible to own/possess a firearm. Trump did expand the definition of MG to include a piece of plastic/oil on a trigger. just a thought ...

 

[Biggfoot44]

The definition is whatever is later retroactively decreed to be the definition .

It's already been retroactively redefined once in 2013 .