the perfect cop handgun

[Fodder4Thought]

In the LE/Military cartridges (and typically when fired from the sub-gun platform) it will penetrate soft body armor. That's pretty much it's main purpose and the only thing it does better than any of the standard pistol cartridges. However, as discussed, with the availability of the "patrol carbine" which fires a round much more capable of defeating soft body armor and the limited use of body armor by criminals... well it really doesn't do anything particularly well. Lots of sacrifices for what ends up being a one-trick pony.

It may be somewhat useful for very specific roles with more specialized units whose mission dictates a pistol-sized weapon capable of defeating soft body armor. In that case it fills a niche not met by most pistol cartridges, but again it comes with a lot of sacrifices in terms of terminal ballistics.

Heh. Thanks, but I got that much - I was wondering about the .22wmr. In particular, I wonder what can be done to the .22wmr to change its behavior both while firing and terminally.

Does anyone know the dimensions of the projectile itself, along with the volume of the case generally occupied by powder in a typical loading?

 

[WSM]

Heh. Thanks, but I got that much - I was wondering about the .22wmr. In particular, I wonder what can be done to the .22wmr to change its behavior both while firing and terminally.

Does anyone know the dimensions of the projectile itself, along with the volume of the case generally occupied by powder in a typical loading?

I REALLY wish I could find the ballistic gel article I came across comparing the .22 WMR vs. 5.7x28. The 5.7 suffered from severe deflection while the 40 grain FMJ's showed impressive penetration and wound channels. Like I said, I can't find the article again and if I recall they were firing the .22 WMR from a rifle and the 5.7 from a pistol. YMMV and take it with a grain of salt but what really concerned me was the fact that through multiple firings the 5.7 penetrated two inches and deflected severely, a perfectly place heart shot may not hit the heart. I have nothing to back this up so it's a moot point .

 

[Minuteman]

All this discussion might be the catalyst for me to finally pick up a chrono. Any recommendations?

Data is still coming in regarding the 'effectiveness' of the 5.7 as a defensive round, but there is at least one (horrible) example from Fort Hood.

 

[Independence]

I'd love to see that video of the 15 shot 'all misses' video, I believe it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8z1e2gBc4

No one was hit.

 

[Mega]

We came up with several criteria that we felt were essential to the gun based upon our experience and I'd ask you to keep them in mind as "musts"

-semi-automatic- the days of service revolvers have passed
-at least 9mm
-absolute reliability- any mechanical device can fail but this one should be as reliable as any weapon can be
-easy to train with
-easy to maintain
-available to the public for less that $750. We know that Gov't Agencies get serious price breaks so we looked at what was commonly in use and figured that nobody was carrying anything that the public couldn't get for $750 or less
-at least 12 round magazine
-capable of using night sights
-reasonably accurate

The following were things that we thought might be worth considering:

-American made- It would be nice if an American owned company built the gun in America
-multiple frame sizes available- A Detective in a suit probably does not need the same weapon that a patrol officer has


Factors that must be considered:
-ammo is expensive, even for the Government and nobody has the budget they want
-most cops only shoot thier weapons during requal so they're not "gun guys"
-a 5'0, 100lb officer will be issued roughly the same weapon that a 6'4 250lb officer will. They both have to be able to use it.

Given your criteria, the Smith and Wesson M&P9 seems to meet all of them.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...4_750001_750051_757954_-1_757781_757781_image

Compact and full size frames, high capacity mags, Crimson Trace grips for those who want them, American made, simple operation, easy to maintain, and a caliber that is about as common as you can get in this country that won't break the department budget.

115gr ball for training and qualifying, and a good quality JHP for carry.

 

[araugh]

My vote would be for the Sig P229 DAK in .357sig if it weren't for that $750 requirement. Easier to take down than the glock for non-gun folks, the necked 357 round means there's hardly ever any chance of a fail to feed in a critical situation, they're compact but still fit large hands well, the double action kellerman design keeps operation extremely simple, etc.

Within the $ limit I'd have to say a Glock 32 would be the way to go for the same reasons. Reliability, ease of use, one size fits most.

 

[Hyper-W]

Not as well versed on firearms as you all but I feel that an important criteria would be parts availability.
Small departments might have one or two 'gun guys' that serve as the armorers. They would need a platform that is simple to work on with a plentiful availability of parts on the market.
Maybe a platform in which the 'duty' and plain clothes firearms share a certain percentage of common parts.

I worked for a small department (as a civilian) in which one of the detectives also served as the armorer.

 

[joppaj]

It's a very valid point Hyper and figures into the overall cost of the weapon. It's probably another reason the Glocks and Sigs are so popular, there are large supplies of spare parts.

 

[Minuteman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ8z1e2gBc4

No one was hit.

Thanks ! Looks bad all the way around.

 

[boss66tcode]

Sig P 226 and Glock 22 - enough said.
For those wishing to go over the caliber wars, replace the Glock 22 with a Glock 17.

 

[BlueHeeler]

Has the Glock won yet?

 

[molonlabe]

I own a glock but if I was carrying for a living it would be a sig P 226.

 

[04RWon]

Glock 17/19/22/23/31/32
Sig P226/P228/P229 9mm, .40, .357sig
FNP in 9mm, .40

Those 3 calibers are used alot everywhere and ammo isnt too pricey.

The pistols are easy to use, clean, shoot. All very accurate and relieable. The FN's backstraps make it a plus to allow fitment over other weapons.

The only issue with the Sig and FN are the DA/SA. I think that users who only fire for their job, may become more familiar with the DAO of the Glock. Everytime they squeeze the trigger, its the same. With the interchangable backstraps, the Glock comes up even higher. Sig's FN's and HK's may be very accurate but a Glock can be just as accurate. If that old guy on youtube can do 80 yard shots with a Glock, accuracy isnt really the pistols fault. The FN hasnt had the attention it deserves so some can say its not really proven. However I would trust it with my life.

If I were incharge of a department and had to find only 1 do it all service pistol, I would probably issue Glock 23's. They can be carried open and concealed. They are easy to use, relieable, durable, accurate, carry atleast 13 rounds plus 1 in chamber. They may not be made in America but they do fit the criteria of everything else.

WINNER GLOCK 23

 

[Bikebreath]

04RWon, at the risk of being nit-picky, the Glock isn't DAO. They call it Safe Action. However, you're right that every time they squeeze the trigger the pull is the same weight.

 

[swinokur]

If the striker is akin to a hammer, the striker is at half cock until the trigger is pulled. Pulling the trigger finishes the cocking of the striker and then releases it. I know you don't have second strike capability but isn't it closer to DAO than anything else?

How about the M & P in 9, 40, or 45? Made in the USA and fulfills the other criteria as well.

 

[rch184]

Sig 220...

 

[RobMoore]

I guess it is time for me to give a serious answer.

M&P 9mm

1. The biggest failure in police gunfights is not the ability of the round to do damage. It is the ability of the cop to hit his/her target. Hence, use 9mm. Instructors can spend more time teaching fast accurate shooting and less time on recoil management/flinching/other issues that the bigger calibers promote more than the 9mm does.

2. The backstraps are actually very different sizes (unlike the glock), and accommodate small and large hands.

3. Easy to clean, and doesn't require a trigger press to disassemble.

4. Made in USA, parts available.

5. Well established company, well established market for holsters and other related gear.

6. Cheap

7. Easy to manipulate controls

8. .....this space reserved for more good things I haven't thought of yet.


It may not be your personal choice in guns, or caliber, but I would like to hear arguments against the merits I have just listed. I think it is the ideal mass-issue cop gun from what it currently available. Remember, this is a gun for people who don't really care about guns.

 

[joppaj]

2. The backstraps are actually very different sizes (unlike the glock), and accommodate small and large hands.

7. Easy to manipulate controls

Ok, let me ask on these two points...

Would you say the backstrap changes are more useful than the Glock's multiple frame sizes for fitting different shooters?

How would the controls match up to the extended slide release and extended mag release commonly seen on the LE issue Glocks? Are they ambi controls?

 

[RobMoore]

I would say yes to the first question. The glock different frames size differences are in capacity and slide length. The grip width and length (not height) are unaffected. This doesn't really help smaller hands, it is a concealment issue.
Regardless, the M&P also has a compact.

With the fullsize, one gun serves many hands, instead of having to use 2-3 guns to serve multiple hands.

As for the second question, yes. Both the magazine release and slide release are ambidextrous.

Also, I have never seen premature slide lock issues with the M&P using thumbs forward like I have with the Glock extended slide release.

The Glock extended mag release is also too big for some hands, and causes discomfort while shooting because it digs into your hand. Then there is also the issue of unintentional magazine release caused by it.

 

[joppaj]

Fair enough, thanks Rob.