"The Army's new handgun already has some serious problems"

[kohburn]

Not the same report, a worse one. We do know. Departments that adopt glocks and M&P see increases in problem, especially the worst kind -- accidental discharge with injury.
neither Sig or glock nor S&W "put out junk." No one is saying they do. But we certainly would be reading a report about problems as bad or worse with glock.

Has anyone actually read the report the article references? The major issue is old and fully fixed. The report is an encapsulation issues that came up earlier and which are known. The most dangerous thing was the drop test using a drop not done by normal testing methods, and which has been addressed, old news. The other issues are minor and as the report clearly shows the large majority are -- training issues for 5% of shooters who are holding the gun WRONG.
Mean time between failure is NOT elevated above RFP. Mean time between stoppage is elevated – but only among a specific group of 5% of the testers. Hmmm:

About 2/3 of all of the failures, stoppages and problems were failure to lock back,(50% on the XM17 and 75% on the XM18) were failure to lock back about 1% of the time. (once every 2,000 rounds, assuming average of 20 rounds in those 21 and 17 round mags they used). The clearly noted this was due to the way the pistol was gripped and felt this was more of a training issue.
The math shows the Sigs are within the RFP stoppage rate for 95% of shooters. Just like glocks which have worse problem when adopted by police departments, with certain shooter, ironically, but if you think about it this makes sense – the more experienced shooter with ingrained habits countiing for the great majority of elevated glock discharge with injury.
If the army had adopted the glock we would have been looking at a DoD report now showing elevated accidental discharge rates with injury, just as departments who bothered to test have seen when they move to striker

So old news, some new information on how 5% of the shooting team is riding a slide release with their thumb.

I got an SR22 a couple of years ago. My daughter who learned on it has never had a failure to fire, if I had that gun to a top shooter at my range, 25% of the shooters will have failure to fire half the time even after I explain the manual of arms. A 15 year old girl will fire it perfectly, and a top shooter has a very good chance of major problems. Why becasuse the safety is opposite of a 1911.They just naturally sweep the safety the wrong way

 

[clandestine]

Neither Sig or glock nor S&W "put out junk." No one is saying they do. But we certainly would be reading a report about problems as bad or worse with glock.

Have you worked on these guns (Sign, Glock, S&W) beyond the scope of your personal firearms?

I have and IMO, all companies put out junk. Problem is some people are so blinded or vested in a Manufacturer, that they won't admit when their favorite flavor (company) is putting out turds.

 

[Dave MP]

Army Responds to DoD Report Criticizing New Sidearm Reliability

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018...idearm-reliability.html?ESRC=army-a_180131.nl

"The Office of the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation recently released its fiscal 2017 report, criticizing the Army's XM17 and XM18 MHS models, made by Sig Sauer, for their performance firing 9mm ball ammunition during the Product Verification Test."

 

[kgain673]

I don't need to explain. It's my opinion. I don't like polymer lowers on a military sidearm. I think wear would be more extreme than police would see. There I explained it anyway. Yes, I could be wrong or something. Maybe your k9 chews it?

The average patrol cop wears and carries their firearm all year long in 4 seasons of weather and exposed to dirt, dust and moisture with minimal cleaning and maintenance (if any). Most police are more concerned with taking off their shoes and body armor after shifts than cleaning and maintence of firearms. So if you want to see normal wear and tear on mass issued firearms look at large police departments firearms and see how they hold up. It’s a great litmus test. Berettas and 1911s were great but the polymer firearms ushered in a new era of lightweight high capacity firearms that need little maintence. Glocks really are the best handguns to issue to your average soldier or cops. You have issue weapons to the lowest common denominator, if you know what I mean.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

I don't believe a Glock is the best to issue average cops...unless they're very well trained. A Glock is easy to have a negligent discharge with if someone is undertrained...and no one wants undertrained police. The riots in the Adams-Morgan section of DC in the early 1990s was due to a DC cop undertrained with the issue Glock...she negligently fired her Glock and killed an unarmed person who was no threat. While something similar can happen with any firearm a Glock is more prone to it. That's why the NYPD specified a heavy trigger pull on theirs...to lessen the chances of it.

I think a Glock is a fine pistol for a SWAT team or very well trained officers, but for the average cop on the job...not really. Why are 1911s pretty much restricted to SWAT officers? The same reason.

There's probably proportionally more civilians better trained with Glocks or 1911s than are police. That most police never need to unholster their sidearms is why there aren't more negligent discharges whether anyone gets injured or not.

 

[Blaster229]

I don't believe a Glock is the best to issue average cops...unless they're very well trained. A Glock is easy to have a negligent discharge with if someone is undertrained...and no one wants undertrained police. The riots in the Adams-Morgan section of DC in the early 1990s was due to a DC cop undertrained with the issue Glock...she negligently fired her Glock and killed an unarmed person who was no threat. While something similar can happen with any firearm a Glock is more prone to it. That's why the NYPD specified a heavy trigger pull on theirs...to lessen the chances of it.

I think a Glock is a fine pistol for a SWAT team or very well trained officers, but for the average cop on the job...not really. Why are 1911s pretty much restricted to SWAT officers? The same reason.

There's probably proportionally more civilians better trained with Glocks or 1911s than are police. That most police never need to unholster their sidearms is why there aren't more negligent discharges whether anyone gets injured or not.

You're kidding, right?

Cops draw their pistols A LOT.
You put a lot of stock in SWAT team training as well. You also admire the NYPD as well. They are also the PD who said (and used) FMJ ammo for their service ammo because is was "safer".

Aside from the FBI HRT, show us which SWAT team uses 1911s. Not many.

I nominate this post for terrible post for the year 2018.

 

[StantonCree]

Yeah bob that was pretty bad bro

 

[clandestine]

I don't believe a Glock is the best to issue average cops...unless they're very well trained. A Glock is easy to have a negligent discharge with if someone is undertrained...and no one wants undertrained police. The riots in the Adams-Morgan section of DC in the early 1990s was due to a DC cop undertrained with the issue Glock...she negligently fired her Glock and killed an unarmed person who was no threat. While something similar can happen with any firearm a Glock is more prone to it. That's why the NYPD specified a heavy trigger pull on theirs...to lessen the chances of it.

I think a Glock is a fine pistol for a SWAT team or very well trained officers, but for the average cop on the job...not really. Why are 1911s pretty much restricted to SWAT officers? The same reason.

There's probably proportionally more civilians better trained with Glocks or 1911s than are police. That most police never need to unholster their sidearms is why there aren't more negligent discharges whether anyone gets injured or not.

I thought you were pretty rational till that post.

 

[Huckleberry]

WTF Bob? Is this post from too much tequila or not quite enough?

Do you understand Glocks or 1911s or is this all just speculation and conjecture?

 

[tkd4life]

Really this is just a case of: Haters gonna hate. /end thread

 

[Name Taken]

I don't believe a Glock is the best to issue average cops...unless they're very well trained. A Glock is easy to have a negligent discharge with if someone is undertrained...and no one wants undertrained police. The riots in the Adams-Morgan section of DC in the early 1990s was due to a DC cop undertrained with the issue Glock...she negligently fired her Glock and killed an unarmed person who was no threat. While something similar can happen with any firearm a Glock is more prone to it. That's why the NYPD specified a heavy trigger pull on theirs...to lessen the chances of it.

I think a Glock is a fine pistol for a SWAT team or very well trained officers, but for the average cop on the job...not really. Why are 1911s pretty much restricted to SWAT officers? The same reason.

There's probably proportionally more civilians better trained with Glocks or 1911s than are police. That most police never need to unholster their sidearms is why there aren't more negligent discharges whether anyone gets injured or not.

You had to of found this forum in 2013 and waited 4 years to join...just had to have.

Might be the worst post of the year.

 

[redeemed.man]

Not the same report, a worse one. We do know. Departments that adopt glocks and M&P see increases in problem, especially the worst kind -- accidental discharge with injury.
neither Sig or glock nor S&W "put out junk." No one is saying they do. But we certainly would be reading a report about problems as bad or worse with glock.

Has anyone actually read the report the article references? The major issue is old and fully fixed. The report is an encapsulation issues that came up earlier and which are known. The most dangerous thing was the drop test using a drop not done by normal testing methods, and which has been addressed, old news. The other issues are minor and as the report clearly shows the large majority are -- training issues for 5% of shooters who are holding the gun WRONG.
Mean time between failure is NOT elevated above RFP. Mean time between stoppage is elevated – but only among a specific group of 5% of the testers. Hmmm:

About 2/3 of all of the failures, stoppages and problems were failure to lock back,(50% on the XM17 and 75% on the XM18) were failure to lock back about 1% of the time. (once every 2,000 rounds, assuming average of 20 rounds in those 21 and 17 round mags they used). The clearly noted this was due to the way the pistol was gripped and felt this was more of a training issue.
The math shows the Sigs are within the RFP stoppage rate for 95% of shooters. Just like glocks which have worse problem when adopted by police departments, with certain shooter, ironically, but if you think about it this makes sense – the more experienced shooter with ingrained habits countiing for the great majority of elevated glock discharge with injury.
If the army had adopted the glock we would have been looking at a DoD report now showing elevated accidental discharge rates with injury, just as departments who bothered to test have seen when they move to striker

So old news, some new information on how 5% of the shooting team is riding a slide release with their thumb.

I got an SR22 a couple of years ago. My daughter who learned on it has never had a failure to fire, if I had that gun to a top shooter at my range, 25% of the shooters will have failure to fire half the time even after I explain the manual of arms. A 15 year old girl will fire it perfectly, and a top shooter has a very good chance of major problems. Why becasuse the safety is opposite of a 1911.They just naturally sweep the safety the wrong way

Did you read it? Unreliable with ball ammo? WTF, a HiPoint wouldn't have that issue. That's as serious of an issue as the drop fire problem.

 

[fidelity]

Yeah bob that was pretty bad bro

I'm guessing he might be a revolver guy, and maybe carried a revolver as a former officer. When was the switch in most PDs to semiautomatic pistols from revolvers? In the 1980s? Perhaps there was a learning curve for all back then for those that were used to shooting revolvers when moving to a more modern platform.

 

[Dave MP]

Did you read it? Unreliable with ball ammo? WTF, a HiPoint wouldn't have that issue. That's as serious of an issue as the drop fire problem.

I have to question the ball ammo failure rates that are noted in the article. All of the ball ammo that I fired since the M9 was issued to me was 124gn. The article states 115gn.

 

[John from MD]

If you read the report, it says sort of unofficially the army wanted it to run with 147gn hp's. The workup required it to also run with 115gn ammo. I can see where they can have some issues with the double ejections if the engineers spec's out the mags to run with the longer cartridges. Just a SWAG on my part though.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

You guys are rough because of an opinion by a former federal officer, handgun, shotgun and submachine gun instructor. I never said the Glock wasn't a fine pistol...just that I thought it wasn't the best general issue pistol to undertrained police officers. The operative word was undertrained. And I did upholster many times but many, if not most cops never do. Not all work in urban or high-crime environments.

It's not like I'm a Liberal Democrat...give a guy a break.

BTW...LAPD is a longtime user of 1911 pistols. They may have changed to something else since I retired but they used 1911s for years.

 

[Name Taken]

You guys are rough because of an opinion by a former federal officer, handgun, shotgun and submachine gun instructor. I never said the Glock wasn't a fine pistol...just that I thought it wasn't the best general issue pistol to undertrained police officers. The operative word was undertrained. And I did upholster many times but many, if not most cops never do. Not all work in urban or high-crime environments.

It's not like I'm a Liberal Democrat...give a guy a break.

BTW...LAPD is a longtime user of 1911 pistols. They may have changed to something else since I retired but they used 1911s for years.

There's nothing to really train for. Touch index is about all you need.

Putting your finger on the trigger of a SA/DA, 1911, DOA, or striker fired weapon is going to lead to the same outcome.

Glocks or other striker fired weapons or no more apt to negligent or accidental discharges than any other platform. And you certainly don't need any more training to safely or properly use it compared to any other firing system.

 

[Blaster229]

You guys are rough because of an opinion by a former federal officer, handgun, shotgun and submachine gun instructor. I never said the Glock wasn't a fine pistol...just that I thought it wasn't the best general issue pistol to undertrained police officers. The operative word was undertrained. And I did upholster many times but many, if not most cops never do. Not all work in urban or high-crime environments.

It's not like I'm a Liberal Democrat...give a guy a break.

BTW...LAPD is a longtime user of 1911 pistols. They may have changed to something else since I retired but they used 1911s for years.

What Fed agency did you work for?
Did you base your opinion of "untrained" from when you went through FITP?

I know most Fed 0083 or 1801 "Officers" who rarely, if ever draw their weapons. Park Police might be the #1 since they actually do roadwork and make vehicle stops. USSS uniformed might be up there as well since working in DC, and then Capitol Police, but not really.

 

[tdt91]

And the M561 Gama Goat and the M47 Dragon and the...and the...





Glock's contention as well.

I wonder how much of a "great value" they think it is now?

The Gama Goat was awesome. What you talking about Willis? That was the only vehicle that would move while in Bivwack in CO when we got some serious rain and everything turned to mud. Trucks, jeeps, tanks, etc, nothing would move but the Gamagoat.

 

[zoostation]

I think some of the issue with Glocks is also perception. Keep in mind that for many agencies Glocks were their first semi-auto pistol ever. So many of the ND's were probably more a product of a change in type than a change in brand. Some of the guys who had been carrying simple revolvers for years, and not doing too hot even with those, were thrown by the switch in mechanism. I know, I was there. I saw it. The one issue the Glock does have is the need to pull the trigger to disassemble. That shouldn't be an issue, but it is. There was a kid killed in DC IIRC when her father went to clean the gun at home and inadvertently discharged a round that way.

The other issue is the need to reset the trigger for a second strike on a primer. An unlikely thing to happen, but just about impossible to maintain in the muscle memory of the average street officer given the limited amount of time for in-service training at most agencies. Taurus of all people came up with an excellent second-strike capability in their striker-fired pistols, but I read on the interwebz those are bad so we won't even talk about them.

All that being said, I still think the Glock is overall a very good choice for a general issue weapon for law enforcement agencies. Simple and reliable. Not perfect, but everything has plus and minuses.

1911's are a different story. No way would that work out for a general issue police gun. Single action only with a grip safety and a need to carry cocked and locked. No. Even if 80% of officers could be trained up to par on it, those that couldn't.......yikes. Tactical teams are one thing, general rank and file issue is another. As Kgain said, you need to train for the lowest common denominator.