The .223 Subsonic Round

[tkd4life]

Please explain why you may as well use a .22. This is a serious request. Not trying to start any shit, but seriously don't know why all the hate. Are the ballistics between the two that similar?

Yes the ballistics are going to be similar between the two. Both the 22lr and subsonic 223 are going to be rainbows in trajectory. Given Mach 1 on a standard day is around 1125 ft/sec and since Kinetic Energy is defined as 1/2 * mass * velocity^2, velocity has a big impact on the energy of a round. Since a 22lr and subsonic 223 are going the same velocity with only a very minor difference in mass, the energies are going to be similar. As some have already suggested, there also might be stability issues with the 223 as well. The 22lr is going to cost you 1/3 the cost of 70+grain reloads. The reason there aren't many subsonic 223's out there is because there is the 22lr. If you want subsonic rounds that do a much better job than 22lr go with 300blk. This is the exact reason I bought a rimfire suppressor and a dedicated 22lr upper. My ammo costs around $0.07 a round, my suppressor was much cheaper, and it does essentially the same thing.

 

[stu929]

If I could find an upper for affordable id much rather have a 45acp upper run very close to the sub/super line and use that. With a can of course. But you of course have 300blk 458 socom and a huge list of other that can sling heavy pills very quietly.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[marc357]

Yeah, not sure why all the hate.

Lets say someone already has a .223/5.56 rifle and suppressor. Perhaps they'd like to shoot a couple quiet shots here and there. Maybe whack occasional yard pests, etc- but not so much that they want to invest in another rifle/suppressor setup.

All they have to do is buy a couple boxes of subs from Kat, or roll a few of their own- and there are options.... :-)

 

[ap1]

YOU WANT THE AMMO ...YOU NEED THE AMMO

Interesting . Any info on price?

HOW MUCH YOU GOT?

Seriously though, we worked these up to fulfill the request from a gun manufacturer who is looking for a cycling subsonic .223 in his newly designed
AR gas system. We have had enough requests for these at shows from people with .22 cal suppressors that we finally gave in and developed the round.
We haven't done cost analysis yet but you can rest assured ...

Like all of our other Tomkat subsonic ammo, the price will be considerably less than, and the quality will meet or exceed most major manufacturers.

[URL=http://s288.photobucket.com/user/apbluebass/media/IMAG1239.jpg.html] [/URL]

WE WILL HAVE THESE BLACK CHERRY 70 GR AS WELL AS THE 69 GR SIERRAS AT NATIONS SHOW. BOTH WILL STABILIZE WITH A 1-9 TWIST BARREL!

[URL=http://s288.photobucket.com/user/apbluebass/media/IMAG1240.jpg.html] [/URL]

 

[ap1]

Nope Stu929.. you did shit on the thread

Its an expensive sub sonic 22?

Why not just get those 80gr 22 rounds?

Not shitting on the thread just dont understand as they are prob expensive for what they are.

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I have never done this before and I will probably never do it again but as an industry partner who is keeping a gun and ammo manufacturing business open in Maryland, and is paying a substantial amount of money to help keep this site running, I wish people would not comment on things they Know nothing about trashing my business in the process.

Stu929... I am too angry right now to go through in a calm and methodical manner the MANY applications for these rounds. Suffice to say, they expand the AR platform, allow for tactical suppressed shooting with a pure subsonic without swapping uppers, and allow individuals with disabilities or physical limitations to
experience the enjoyment of shooting an AR15. I know the day that I and RetAFShooter went to the range we had stupid fun shooting them!

Stu929... sometimes it's better to say nothing and keep your opinions to yourself

 

[ap1]

fps

Bullets are all about energy.

70gr .223 @ 950fps = 140 Ft/Pounds
60gr .22 @ 950fps = 120 Ft/Pounds

Is it really worth all the machinations to make a subsonic .223 work when a .22 subsonic will do basically the same job. The .223 effectiveness comes from its high velocity 55gr @ 3,500 ftps it really is counter-intuitive to make it subsonic. Its like taking a top fuel dragster and using it to shuttle people from the airport parking lot to the terminal.

1060 fps on the .223 out of a 16 in 1-9

 

[Pinecone]

I believe UTMs (Ultimate Training Munitions) have a clever means of doing this already. Each round has two "stages". One to cycle the weapon and the second to propel the bullet.

UTMs use a different bolt and are essentially blowback like a rimfire. The bolt has a recoil spring that operates, the actual rifle recoil spring is essentially a solid rod when firing UTMs. The .223 rounds also telescope under firing to give a higher recoil impulse to the bolt face.

In pistols you replace the recoil spring and barrel for UTMs.

I fired both .223 and 9mm UTMs in some room clearing I did at BSR (Summit Point) during a Carbine Class last Nov. Write up in the Training section.

 

[Pinecone]

Match bullets don't need to expand to work, they tumble.

But a LOT of work for not much gain.

Better build a .300 BO upper and use a .30 can, for low noise, higher energy.

 

[teratos]

I have never done this before and I will probably never do it again but as an industry partner who is keeping a gun and ammo manufacturing business open in Maryland, and is paying a substantial amount of money to help keep this site running, I wish people would not comment on things they Know nothing about trashing my business in the process. Stu929... I am too angry right now to go through in a calm and methodical manner the MANY applications for these rounds. Suffice to say, they expand the AR platform, allow for tactical suppressed shooting with a pure subsonic without swapping uppers, and allow individuals with disabilities or physical limitations to experience the enjoyment of shooting an AR15. I know the day that I and RetAFShooter went to the range we had stupid fun shooting them! Stu929... sometimes it's better to say nothing and keep your opinions to yourself

While I appreciate you being an IP, Stu929 asked legitimate questions. This is an open forum. You have chosen to support it, and you are going to need to take the good with the bad. You gave a nice explanation, and answered his question. I don't think the "day of rage" at TK ammunition is appropriate. While Stu929 now understands the application for your ammo, if I were Stu, I would never patronize your establishment. Sorry. Had to comment as your post really rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Ok , it's rude to cast aspirations on an IP's products in their dedicated IP subforum. Many of us make use of the "New Posts" button, and only the thread title, but not the subforum apear on the screen, particularly on mobile devices.

It is a great thing to see firearms related enterprises thrive, in the PRM generally, and the MDS family specifically.


Meanwhile, the will be a generalized discussion of low velocity .223 ballustics and applications w-/o any brand names starting in another subforum.

 

[Fox123]

Ok , it's rude to cast aspirations on an IP's products in their dedicated IP subforum. Many of us make use of the "New Posts" button, and only the thread title, but not the subforum apear on the screen, particularly on mobile devices.

It is a great thing to see firearms related enterprises thrive, in the PRM generally, and the MDS family specifically.


Meanwhile, the will be a generalized discussion of low velocity .223 ballustics and applications w-/o any brand names starting in another subforum.

It would be rude if this was their sub forum.


It is not.


It would also be rude to do what the ip did in this open arsenal forum. Someone had legit question and they came and shit on him. I have never purchased from tomkat, they have now not given me any reason to seek their services, actually quite the contrary.

 

[teratos]

It would be rude if this was their sub forum.


It is not.


It would also be rude to do what the ip did in this open arsenal forum. Someone had legit question and they came and shit on him. I have never purchased from tomkat, they have now not given me any reason to seek their services, actually quite the contrary.

Stu asked a legit question. It would have been an excellent opportunity to say "I'm glad you asked....." Even on their own subforum, isn't the idea to show new products, and perhaps educate people on the applications?

 

[Klunatic]

Wow, I would think the IP would welcome a frank discussion about a product they plan on marketing. Especially from the group he targets for his products. Major manufactures pay big $$$ to put together focus groups to evaluate a product and its market reception. Way more $$$ than the IP is paying to supports this forum. Its valuable feedback he is getting on his possible product offering, that if I were him, would heed before investing in developing and manufacturing a product. One can not make a market by wishing there is demand for their boutique product. Getting upset at people, in a public forum, who don't find use for your product is counter productive.

I wouldn't personally purchase a subsonic .223 round but that's just my $.02. I am sure there are a few people who will but how big is that market? I have heard good things about the IP's .300 blk subs and would probably buy them if I didn't roll my own.

 

[Fox123]

Exactly. I think that maybe ap1 should take his own advice from his last line of post #25.

 

[ap1]

public apology to Stu929, teratos, Fox123, et,al.

I apologize for my rude comments that may have offended anyone. I realize that there is no place for my behavior in this forum.

 

[teratos]

I apologize for my rude comments that may have offended anyone. I realize that there is no place for my behavior in this forum.

Thank you. Now go make some awesome ammo.

 

[friendlyhippo]

1060 fps on the .223 out of a 16 in 1-9

what happens when people take the ammo to a higher elevation or colder climate? If constructive criticism is being accepted, perhaps loading it a bit slower would help so it doesn't go supersonic in those instances. not everyone stays in the PRM 100% of the time.

 

[Deepwoods]

Another Option...

Whether or not a subsonic .223 makes sense, or whether one is better served with a .22, here is another option.

http://beckammunition.com/ammunition/subsonic-ammo (no affiliation)

They have a few different weight options for different barrel twists. In the 308 round, they've got a few different bullet types.

I've shot a little of the 75gr .223 and the 168 .308, both suppressed.

I bought them knowing they wouldn't cycle an AR's BCG. I have a suppressed .22LR, but wanted to see what the experience would be like with my larger ARs.

Accuracy was so-so. The 308 I have is quite capable, and the groups with the sub 168s were meh. Not terrible, but not great. (Full disclosure, my rifle skills are a bit rusty)

In both cases, the drop is impressive But Beck does provide a good ballistics chart PDF.

 

[ap1]

great outdoors

what happens when people take the ammo to a higher elevation or colder climate? If constructive criticism is being accepted, perhaps loading it a bit slower would help so it doesn't go supersonic in those instances. not everyone stays in the PRM 100% of the time.

Thank you for the suggestion. Normally, barrel length and twist tends to affect bullet speed a lot more than temperature (depending on the powder used) but these should still stay under the radar . During our testing we switched between
20''1-9 and 22'' 1-8 barrels. With the 70 grain kjax bullet, we found a 10+- fps
difference. Our preference with ammo is to keep speeds consistent and as high as possible especially with our 300AAC Blackout. Speed is accuracy. We will have our complete line of subsonic ammo available this weekend at the Nations Gun Show. Come out and take a look for yourself.

 

[Z_Man]

what happens when people take the ammo to a higher elevation or colder climate? If constructive criticism is being accepted, perhaps loading it a bit slower would help so it doesn't go supersonic in those instances. not everyone stays in the PRM 100% of the time.

those rounds would remain subsonic as long as the temperature is at 9 degrees F or warmer. the speed of sound at 8 degrees F is 1060 FPS.

it won't matter the elevation as temperature has the impact on speed of sound (humidity will have a small impact on speed of sound).

so based on the limited data given by the manufacturer (+/-10 fps) (i don't know how many samples to give adequate statistical analysis), but lets say the +/-10 fps is 3 sigma up or down, (also assuming normal distribution) which means 99.7% of all rounds will fall in the 1060 +/-10 fps range, so reality their rounds would be consistently subsonic at or below 1070 fps. 17 degrees F has a speed of sound just over 1070 fps.

(1-.9973)/2 +.9973) =.99865(gives you half of the population outside of 3 sigma, being slower than 1050 fps will still be subsonic, so we only need to exlude half of the rounds outside of the majority)

so 99.87% of his rounds will be subsonic at or above 17 degrees F. so that is 1 round out of 741 rounds would be expected to be supersonic at 17 degrees F. above 17 degrees F the % of rounds that would be supersonic decreases significantly.



TL: DR

they are subsonic down to 17 degrees F, regardless of elevation.