Taurus Judge wrong for me???

[cad424]

Neither one meets the FBI standard of 12". 4" of penetration is frankly pathetic. The key here is remembering that while 4" may stop someone hit straight, if it's a side hit, or goes through an arm first, or a leather jacket, that's not even going to get close.

I'd say that 10" of penetration with three discs slugs is quite sufficient. I was wrong about the BBs it's 6" and I think at that point the issue has been taken care of.

It actually has 12 BBs as opposed to three that I stated earlier.

 

[alucard0822]

I'd say that 10" of penetration with three discs slugs is quite sufficient. I was wrong about the BBs it's 6" and I think at that point the issue has been taken care of.

The test was 10" in bare gel, like most any other non-axpanding projectile, any barrier whatsoever reduces the penetration, where expanding ammo tends to delay or reduce expansion through barriers and end up penetrating the same or deeper through heavy clothing, plywood, or drywall. Basically if the load penetrates 10" in bare gel, adding denim, bones, or a heavy coat will reduce it, being it is already less than what most would consider adequate(12"), a reduction in penetration due to an assailant wearing clothes and having a skeleton would limit its effectiveness even more so, and having a large frontal area, and light individual weight around 80gr, they would likely perform poorly through barriers, and lose a lot of velocity compared to most any service caliber projectile. The BBs are pretty much worthless, even 6" of penetration cannot reach vitals outside of a perfect shot in a thin bad guy. The load would probably work better if the BBs were replaced by another disc, the disks were made thicker to add weight, or removed to gain velocity and penetration from the 3 standard disks. The short barrel of the judge also loses a ton of velocity, can't find data for the PDX1 load, but similar weighted 2.5" 000 pellet loads tend to do about 800FPS from the 4" judge, and about 650-700 out of the 2" models, 3" maguns add a pellet or two and achieve about the same velocity. Judging by the BBs penetration depth, this is probably about as fast as the PDX1 load, being there is a lot of data for BB penetraion in gel, because they are used to calibrate the block. It also brings up the question of weither or not this was fired into a 10% calibrated block, and not one that was too warm, and too soft.

Despite the hype around the PDX1 load, it looks like the 45 colt load is still the only viable defensive load the Judge is capable of chambering given it's short barrel, and I still scratch my head as to why a monstrous 5 shot 410 revolver is looked upon as superior to service caliber autos, or even standard 38/357/41/44/45 caliber revolvers when most impartial tests and data difinitively shows otherwise.

 

[cad424]

The test was 10" in bare gel, like most any other non-axpanding projectile, any barrier whatsoever reduces the penetration, where expanding ammo tends to delay or reduce expansion through barriers and end up penetrating the same or deeper through heavy clothing, plywood, or drywall. Basically if the load penetrates 10" in bare gel, adding denim, bones, or a heavy coat will reduce it, being it is already less than what most would consider adequate(12"), a reduction in penetration due to an assailant wearing clothes and having a skeleton would limit its effectiveness even more so, and having a large frontal area, and light individual weight around 80gr, they would likely perform poorly through barriers, and lose a lot of velocity compared to most any service caliber projectile. The BBs are pretty much worthless, even 6" of penetration cannot reach vitals outside of a perfect shot in a thin bad guy. The load would probably work better if the BBs were replaced by another disc, the disks were made thicker to add weight, or removed to gain velocity and penetration from the 3 standard disks. The short barrel of the judge also loses a ton of velocity, can't find data for the PDX1 load, but similar weighted 2.5" 000 pellet loads tend to do about 800FPS from the 4" judge, and about 650-700 out of the 2" models, 3" maguns add a pellet or two and achieve about the same velocity. Judging by the BBs penetration depth, this is probably about as fast as the PDX1 load, being there is a lot of data for BB penetraion in gel, because they are used to calibrate the block. It also brings up the question of weither or not this was fired into a 10% calibrated block, and not one that was too warm, and too soft.

Despite the hype around the PDX1 load, it looks like the 45 colt load is still the only viable defensive load the Judge is capable of chambering given it's short barrel, and I still scratch my head as to why a monstrous 5 shot 410 revolver is looked upon as superior to service caliber autos, or even standard 38/357/41/44/45 caliber revolvers when most impartial tests and data difinitively shows otherwise.

There's a nice write-up on the PDX1 in the current issue of Guns and Ammo and that's what intrigued me to dig deeper.

I'm not rushing out to buy a Judge but I think it's a neat concept. I expect other manufacturers to follow suit.

 

[Slimjim]

Just wait for the raging judge and carry it loaded with .454 casull.

 

[clandestine]

Just wait for the raging judge and carry it loaded with .454 casull.

Are you really going to trust your life in the brush with a Taurus?

 

[Numidian]

Just wait for the raging judge and carry it loaded with .454 casull.

At which point the .454 blows away anything offered in .410 as far as power goes, so once again, why bother.... And a standard .454 casull revolver can fire .45 colt still, so get .45colt shot shells if you want shot from a revolver.

 

[Slimjim]

Are you really going to trust your life in the brush with a Taurus?

I didnt know i ended up in the brush on a daily basis.

 

[clandestine]

I didnt know i ended up in the brush on a daily basis.

I thought you wanted a brush gun for WV, thats all.

You seem to have good taste Slimjim, not sure why you want a Taurus, seems off character for you.

 

[Biggfoot44]

(Not touching the underlying Tarus debate at this time & thread)

When the latest issue of HANDLOADER hit my mailbox it had an extensive test of a 3in cylnder, 3in bbl Judge by editor Dave Scovil. ( For those who aren't readers Handloader, and the other publications of Wolfe Publishing, are light years more technical and impartial than typical mass corculation gun 'zines).
Scovil had been uninterested in the concept, but in view of the popularity and hype thought it would be worthwhile to explor what one would be actually capable of.

As expected, the big issue was a 1.83in free bore for a bullet before entering throat. This potentially has bullets slamming into the throat in random angles and alignment. This results in the bullet being prone to tumbling, and widely scattered patterns at test distance of 10yds. The ammo concept that DID work was on the order of the traditional .45LC factory load. The one with the swaged hollow base RN/FP bullet at nominal 860fps. Handloads with Speer swaged SWCs at similar presures gave similar results. Factory and handloads with either low recoil "cowboy" loads, or any loads using jacketed or hard cast bullets tumbled , and gave larger than shotgun groups. Velicoties were higher than expected , about 75-100 fps slower than a 5.5in revolver ( aka higher than a 2in snubbie in .45).
How good was good ? 2-3in groups at 10yds. ie plenty good a car length distance, barely minute of felon at 20-25yds. Better than I would have expected with ONE loading, hpoeless with rest.

Scovil also tested with Federal ".410 Handgun" four pellet 0000 buck . Vels with buck were mid 800 fps . The patterns were ( suprisingly to me) about the same size as solid bullet groups. At 10yds all pellets within 4in, about 3 out of 4 into 2in .
It can be debated until the cows come home, but I place enough credence in the "shock overload" or "pattern desensity" theory to accord extra potency of four simultanious hits in torso to be more than the sum of the total.
Scovil's bottom line = capable of intended/ advertised mission with buckshot, and one type of .45LC ( without commenting relative to conventional guns).
Biggfoot44's bottom line from interpeting Scovil's testing = Better than expected. The buck load will do all that it can deliver. The perception that spread of pellets could make up for poor aiming won't fly, just as precise aiming is required to either have a tight cluster, or complete miss. That being said, I will still restrain myself running out to buy one, but probably would enjoy some further testing of a certain handloading partner's Judge should the oppertunity arise. BTW while the swaged RN/FP is not the latest, sexiest load, it got the job done for 130+ yrs as good as, or better than the legandary .45acp hardball.

Meanwhile "for me" a 3.5in BlackHawk .45LC with 1 or 2 CCI shotshells, and Silvertips remains barn gun. Note the shotshells are for four footed grain eating vermin, not 2 leg BGs.

 

[ForwardAssist]

Its a novelty gun at best, made by a Manufacturer with terrible Q.C.

If you want a niche gun for the range then its fine, but for defense its not wise. When loaded with .45LC its a decent man stopper but .410 shot is TERRIBLE at stopping a person.

Yep, that pretty much nails it.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

 

[Minuteman]

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show/dupo_7_news

The ultimate round for the Judge?