Suspicious looking Speer Lawman .38 ammo

[Art3]

Part 1, The Bad:

I bought some Speer Lawman .38sp 158 gr TMJ ammo at the York gun show yesterday. I was surprised to find the cases looking a little scrungy, and even more concerned when noticed what I consider an ugly crimp and the bullet appearing to be set back pretty far.

I looked in my reloading books (including Speer) and online, but could not find a published COAL for this particular projectile. They sure look short. This is the first one I measured:

Most of the others were 1.385. I couldn't find any published data for a COAL that short in this weight.

My fear is that these are crappy reloads. See Part 2 (coming in a couple minutes) for evidence of maybe not.

 

[wilcam47]

Part 1, The Bad:

I bought some Speer Lawman .38sp 158 gr TMJ ammo at the York gun show yesterday. I was surprised to find the cases looking a little scrungy, and even more concerned when noticed what I consider an ugly crimp and the bullet appearing to be set back pretty far. View attachment 458170
View attachment 458171

View attachment 458173
I looked in my reloading books (including Speer) and online, but could not find a published COAL for this particular projectile. They sure look short. This is the first one I measured:
View attachment 458172
Most of the others were 1.385. I couldn't find any published data for a COAL that short in this weight.

My fear is that these are crappy reloads. See Part 2 (coming in a couple minutes) for evidence of maybe not.

 

[ohen cepel]

They look short and most published COAL for 38's that weight is 1.4xx.

However, found this ad for what may be the same ammo. It also looks short like you pic.

Speer 38 Special 158 gr TMJ Lawman Cleanfire Trade Ammo 50/Box

Speer: 38 Special 158 gr TMJ Lawman Cleanfire Trade Ammo 50/Box for sale at Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore.

www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com

Seems to be Clean Fire ammo so maybe that loading has a shorter COAL? Likely old LE ammo which has been sitting around for a while.

Speer has a pic of it also showing a short loading;

Buy Lawman Handgun Clean-Fire Training for USD 60.99 | Speer

Shopping for the Lawman Handgun Clean-Fire Training - Learn more about the latest Lawman Handgun CleanFire Training and other hunting, shooting or reloading gear at Speer.

www.speer.com

So, I think it is old, odd stuff but likely safe.

 

[Art3]

Part 2:

There were a lot of these ammo boxes full of this ammo. I only bought one, but the vendor had a big spread of name brand ammo.

I found a pic online of this exact ammo. Coincidentally, it's from an IP on here's website, so I hope it is ok to screenshot

That case sure looks a lot cleaner than mine, but the bullet also looks just as too deeply set, and that is a pretty stout crimp.
As best I can tell, this is what the projectile is supposed to look like:

There is indeed a cannelure, but both the rounds I bought and the one's pictured seemed to be crimped in front of it.

What makes me hold out the most hope that these are not reloads are the primers. They appear to be stamped "CF" which is also on the box. Apparently it means "cleanfire" for a less toxic primer. Would a reloader have gone through the trouble of sourcing CF primers?

The boxes do not appear to be water damaged. All of the cases have some degree of funk and the same deep set bullet.

 

[Squaregrouper]

My Lyman manual has 158gr HP and similar weight FP at 1.47-1.48"
The crimp on Art's ammo does not look like a factory crimp, they're far too aggressive/tight.
@Art3 Run your calipers at the crimp and again 2mm towards the primer end.

 

[Art3]

yes.

 

[Art3]

They look short and most published COAL for 38's that weight is 1.4xx.

However, found this ad for what may be the same ammo. It also looks short like you pic.

Speer 38 Special 158 gr TMJ Lawman Cleanfire Trade Ammo 50/Box

Speer: 38 Special 158 gr TMJ Lawman Cleanfire Trade Ammo 50/Box for sale at Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore.

www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com

Seems to be Clean Fire ammo so maybe that loading has a shorter COAL? Likely old LE ammo which has been sitting around for a while.

Speer has a pic of it also showing a short loading;

Buy Lawman Handgun Clean-Fire Training for USD 60.99 | Speer

Shopping for the Lawman Handgun Clean-Fire Training - Learn more about the latest Lawman Handgun CleanFire Training and other hunting, shooting or reloading gear at Speer.

www.speer.com

So, I think it is old, odd stuff but likely safe.

Those do indeed look short. None of my boxes are as beat up as the first link...but their bullets are prettier.

 

[Art3]

My Lyman manual has 158gr HP and similar weight FP at 1.47-1.48"

I looked a Lyman too. No one (that I could find) seems to have data for this exact bullet. I would think that, presumably having more copper in it would make the bullet actually longer for its weight (not counting HP).
If it wasn't for the factory pictures looking so short, I'd definitely call this stuff crap.

 

[Squaregrouper]

Part 2:

There were a lot of these ammo boxes full of this ammo. I only bought one, but the vendor had a big spread of name brand ammo.

I found a pic online of this exact ammo. Coincidentally, it's from an IP on here's website, so I hope it is ok to screenshot

View attachment 458175
That case sure looks a lot cleaner than mine, but the bullet also looks just as too deeply set, and that is a pretty stout crimp.
As best I can tell, this is what the projectile is supposed to look like:
View attachment 458176
There is indeed a cannelure, but both the rounds I bought and the one's pictured seemed to be crimped in front of it.

What makes me hold out the most hope that these are not reloads are the primers. They appear to be stamped "CF" which is also on the box. Apparently it means "cleanfire" for a less toxic primer. Would a reloader have gone through the trouble of sourcing CF primers?
View attachment 458177

The boxes do not appear to be water damaged. All of the cases have some degree of funk and the same deep set bullet.

CF stamped primers are CCI "Clean Fire" primers. They are rarely seen outside factory ammo.

 

[Art3]

Code on the box (all 5 boxes the same):

If it reads like the date codes I'm familiar with, it would have been made on the 208th day of 2014...but I don't know if ammo is coded that way.

 

[Art3]

CF stamped primers are CCI "Clean Fire" primers. They are rarely seen outside factory ammo.

That's what I was kinda thinking.

 

[Art3]

You think that was nasty...

 

[Art3]

I appreciate all the input, and can't wait to hear more. I think the two most definitive responses (for me) would be either: A picture from someone's stash of a known factory example of one of these rounds that also looks set too deep and over crimped (bonus points if you have stored it properly and it still looks nasty like mine) or......from the other end of the spectrum, a bunch of anecdotes about shady experiences from this company (who I don't think I've ever dealt with before).

 

[Squaregrouper]

I appreciate all the input, and can't wait to hear more. I think the two most definitive responses (for me) would be either: A picture from someone's stash of a known factory example of one of these rounds that also looks set too deep and over crimped (bonus points if you have stored it properly and it still looks nasty like mine) or......from the other end of the spectrum, a bunch of anecdotes about shady experiences from this company (who I don't think I've ever dealt with before).

I have never dealt with them, but they're in Finksburg, just up the road from Maryland Elite Firearms/Baltimore's Best Pawn.

 

[Biggfoot44]

For the moment , overlook the C.O.L , that's not the figurative Smoking Gun .

Look closely at the crimps.

Your ammo has STAB crimps . The product photos from Speer and the legitimate third parties all show conventional crimps .

 

[Sundazes]

Contact them today. Post up what they say.

 

[Bountied]

Does the COL matter if you're shooting from a revolver? Not sure what the issues is?

 

[DutchV]

Does the COL matter if you're shooting from a revolver? Not sure what the issues is?

If bullets are seated too deep, you'll get higher pressures.

 

[Alutacon]

Does the COL matter if you're shooting from a revolver? Not sure what the issues is?

Issue is dem iz some ugly a?? Booooo-lits!

 

[trickg]

Send em.