Supervised PBJ and firearms - anyone else been through this?

[squirrels]

Long story short, I went to court today for my DUI...one year supervised probation before judgement on all charges.

They make you go to the probation office at the courthouse before you leave and I was assigned a probation agent and given a number to call and the date of my first appointment...then they mentioned that I am not allowed to possess or own any firearms.

I informed them immediately that I own several firearms, all of which I own legally and owned before this incident. The clerk had to "speak to her supervisor" and then informed me that I would have to tell the probation agent that I own firearms. She made me sign a paper, which I did.

The paper says that I have been advised that possession of a firearm constitutes a violation of my probation. I'm not sure how this works, though...one of my firearms is an SBR, which by NFA (Federal) law I am required to maintain in my possession at all times. I called the probation officer just to be absolutely sure on this...got voicemail, left a message, so far no response.

Does anyone know how this works in MD? Has anyone been through this? Can they make you surrender or sell all of your firearms just for being on probation for a DUI/traffic offense? They can't even take them if you're CONVICTED of a DUI, unless you're a "habitual drunkard" (which I am not, first offense) or unless the misdemeanor could have carried a penalty of two years (DUI carries only 1 max).

 

[Inigoes]

Where you in Traffic Court or Criminial Court?

If criminal, then that's how they got you. look youself up on casecearch. They might have nailed you for something you were unaware of.

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/processDisclaimer.jis

 

[squirrels]

Where you in Traffic Court or Criminial Court?

If criminal, then that's how they got you. look youself up on casecearch. They might have nailed you for something you were unaware of.

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/processDisclaimer.jis

No, it was traffic court. I got PBJ on DUI per se and on a speeding charge.

The probation is "supervised", for one year.

I mean, what they led me to believe is that I would just need to inform my probation agent that I do possess firearms which I legally possessed prior to the start of probation. But that's not what this paper I got says. And I can't get in touch with the actual probation agent.

I mean, my thought is that I called and left a message to that effect...I should just wait until my first appointment and bring it up then. But what do I do in the meantime?

 

[Inigoes]

A trusted friend/Family member might be in order.

Keep us posted.

 

[Ethan83]

Wow, good question... I completed an unsupervised PBJ last year, and was never told anything about firearms. I actually bought two long guns while on said PBJ, nothing regulated though. I suppose a 'supervised' PBJ changes things quite a bit.

 

[Matlack]

Find a safe place to put them that is outside your house. It would stink to have one of those "knocks" at 2am and then everything go missing.

 

[Jaybeez]

Lawyer.

Sobriety.

Watch cornhole.

In that order.

 

[joppaj]

Lawyer.

Sobriety.

Watch cornhole.

In that order.

I'd add... Stop discussing your guns online until you have an answer.

 

[novus collectus]

I have to look closer, but I believe a PBJ or probation for a misdemeanor which is not an offense which would make you a prohibitted person does not prevent firearms ownership by fed law and unless there is something I haven't seen yet, not by MD either.
However, I guess if a judge orders as conditions of your probation you cannot possess firearms, take a shit in the afternoon or cannot wear pink shirts then you cannot or else maybe risking violating your probation.
Now, the probation office (usually the DDMP) may claim you have a whole bunch of restrictions and requirements to follow, but if the judge did not put in the order that you must follow whatever they say, then you just have to do what the judge stated in court (show up at the probation officer to check in and such).
For instance, if the judge does not say you have to do everything the DDMP tells you to and does not mandate self help meetings, then the probation officer generally can't make you (but they will swear up and down you have to do everything they demand until your lawyer gives them a call).

BUt even if it is true that in MD you cannot possess firearms when on probation for a non-prohibitive misdemeanor, there is still the possibility you could make this a 2A case or push the point that there is probably nothing in fed or state law saying you have to give up jack. I have to see if I can find a case I think I read a while back in another case, but I think someone else went through somehting similar and won after his challenge.

I am not a lawyer.

 

[pitjeep]

didnt you have a lawler for the dui? he should had addressed the problem.

 

[BeltBuckle]

If you had a lawyer, you may want to think about a different one. I dunno but the conditions you describe seem... arbitrary and suspect, at best, and I would be shocked if there were no legal grounds under which they could be challenged.

And your conversations with whomever on this should be privileged, i.e., protected by the lawyer/client relationship and therefore not discoverable. In other words, not on a public board. If it were me, at this point I'd ask the mods to close and expunge this thread....

Good luck!!!

 

[novus collectus]

I am not a lawyer and I really have no clue, but this is what I found so far:

§ 6-220. Probation before judgment.

(a) "Custodial confinement" defined.- In this section, "custodial confinement" means:

(1) home detention;

(2) a corrections options program established under law which requires the individual to participate in home detention, inpatient treatment, or other similar program involving terms and conditions that constitute the equivalent of confinement; or

(3) inpatient drug or alcohol treatment.

(b) In general.-

(1) When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions if:

(i) the court finds that the best interests of the defendant and the public welfare would be served; and

(ii) the defendant gives written consent after determination of guilt or acceptance of a nolo contendere plea.

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4) of this subsection, the conditions may include an order that the defendant:

(i) pay a fine or monetary penalty to the State or make restitution; or

(ii) participate in a rehabilitation program, the parks program, or a voluntary hospital program.

(3) Before the court orders a fine, monetary penalty, or restitution, the defendant is entitled to notice and a hearing to determine the amount of the fine, monetary penalty, or restitution, what payment will be required, and how payment will be made.

(4) Any fine or monetary penalty imposed as a condition of probation shall be within the amount set by law for a violation resulting in conviction.

(5) As a condition of probation, the court may order a person to a term of custodial confinement or imprisonment.

So as I read it, if the judge did not put it in the conditions that you surrender firearms, then I have a feeling it is not part of your probation and the form you signed may be a general form they give to people who are also prohibitted persons because of a major conviction. It might (I emphacise MIGHT) not apply to you.
Also as I read the statute above, you might be able to fight a judges order, if he ordered a surrender, using the "reasonable conditions" wording, but I have no clue how to proceed with such a challenge.

Is there a real lawyer here who can comment on the above?

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

The prohibition in this case comes from being on probation and doesn’t have anything to do with the crime. I’m assuming you were in District Court with the DUI. First thing you need to do is look at the courtroom worksheet you got and see what actual conditions of probation were imposed. There is often a large disconnect between what conditions were actually imposed in court and what an agent thinks you can or cannot do (kind of like the MSP and its interpretation of firearm laws).
In Maryland Judges have a large amount of discretion as to what conditions are imposed in return for you getting probation. To simplify things and prevent having them repeat themselves over and over there are a number of standard conditions on a form developed by the court system and the division of parole and probation. Typically when the Judge grants probation they will usually say something like “all standard conditions.” One of the standard conditions is that the probationer get the agent’s permission before owning or possessing any dangerous weapon not just a firearm. Typically what is done is the person just has someone else keep the weapons until probation is over. (Well really what is typically done is most people just lie to the agent. “What do you mean I can’t hunt?” But I don’t recommend that!) You are in a bind because you have an NFA item that you can’t easily transfer or have someone hold for you. I have never seen an agent give permission for anyone. What you need to do is talk to your attorney and have him file a motion to modify to ask the court to strike that condition of probation. Your attorney can do this and also tell you the likelihood of success. (Really just depends on the judge). If not other alternative is to get your probation modified to unsupervised.

 

[squirrels]

One of the standard conditions is that the probationer get the agent’s permission before owning or possessing any dangerous weapon not just a firearm.

Yes, that's what the court says. The judge did not say anything explicit about firearms...I was unaware that such a restriction existed at the time PBJ was granted. I had guns before that restriction was imposed, so there was no possible way I could "get permission first", because the probation began while I was in possession.

I am making every effort to get in touch with my Probation Agent to discuss the matter...I have a feeling, though, I'm not going to hear anything until my first meeting with her.

What you need to do is talk to your attorney and have him file a motion to modify to ask the court to strike that condition of probation. Your attorney can do this and also tell you the likelihood of success. (Really just depends on the judge). If not other alternative is to get your probation modified to unsupervised.

I will certainly call and ask him. My concern is that with PBJ, you have no right to appeal the decision...I'm not sure if modifying the probation conditions counts as an "appeal".

 

[smokedog]

I have a family member who went thru this about 10 yrs ago and was worried at that time about firearms and told their probation officer that firearms were in their possesion and kept at their residence legally and since it was not a felony/violent crime charge just notifying them of possesion was all their probation officer needed.
I hope this is your case and wish you the best.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

My concern is that with PBJ, you have no right to appeal the decision...I'm not sure if modifying the probation conditions counts as an "appeal".

It doesn't. You can ask to modify the terms and conditions of probation anytime during the period of probation.

 

[squirrels]

I have a family member who went thru this about 10 yrs ago and was worried at that time about firearms and told their probation officer that firearms were in their possesion and kept at their residence legally and since it was not a felony/violent crime charge just notifying them of possesion was all their probation officer needed.
I hope this is your case and wish you the best.

That's good to know. The Probation Agent has not returned my call yet, so it seems as though they DON'T care as much as I thought they might. Either way, I've done my due diligence at this point.

It doesn't. You can ask to modify the terms and conditions of probation anytime during the period of probation.

I do have an E-mail in to my lawyer explaining the situation. I am waiting for a reply.

Thanks for your comments and experiences...they are appreciated.

[/thread]

 

[Teemus]

I'm betting (and hoping) that this whole mess at the probation office was simply the result of some I-don't-care, I'-having-a-bad-day, knuckleheaded employee deciding that they were going to try and put the screws to you because they are either too damned LAZY or STUPID to know what the real ruling is. So, not really caring about you or your case, they decided to "err on the side of safety" and put all the restrictions on you they could.

Bottom line...go get a REAL lawyer who SPECIALIZES in these cases and find out the straight scoop.

 

[INMY01TA]

I talked to a girl friend today who is on supervised probation for DWI and they had the same thing about firearms in the stipulations. She didn't think much about it as she doesn't own any. She told me she made a joke to the probation officer that her son had a BB gun.

 

[squirrels]

Well...I met with the probation agent today. She told me that I was NOT allowed to own firearms...that I had to either transfer them all or write a letter to the judge requesting that the condition be lifted.

I can transfer everything to friends and then just transfer it back when this is over...that's not a problem...except the SBR. Unless I straight-up sell it to a Class III dealer (and lose it forever), I don't know how I can unload that in a reasonable timeframe.