Stranger in a strange land, auction find.

[mawkie]

-Earlier in the week I came across this listing in a PA auction flyer...

72. CULLE D'ARMES MODEL 1886. 8MM CAL. M27 BOLT ACTION WITH CLIP.

-That was enough to get me on the phone to verify that the item in question hadn't been bubba'd. Got confirmation that it was unmolested and so I hopped into the SAABaru for the 90 mile drive to Lancaster county. What I found was interesting in so many ways.
-The auction house is run by the Amish, never saw so many beards, suspenders and straw hats in my life. The building lighting was done w. GAS (yes, like a big version of a Coleman gas lantern). And the rifle was what I thought and more.
Going in I knew that the rifle had to be a French 1886 93 M.27 "Lebel" in 7.5 French. Very rare. There are about 15 known to collectors here in the US. I am fortunate to have one that I restored (bubba had "improved" it) so I knew what to look for. And this one had all the correct M.27 features, but when I pulled it from the rack something was amiss. It was shorter than a std M.27 by about 3-4 inches. Yet everything about it screamed original. To the best of my knowledge this thing shouldn't exist but here it was.
-So I bid away and got it for $400, cheap for a run-of-the-mill Lebel, let alone any M27 variant. Got it home, tore down the fore stock for photos of the barrel markings and found more matching numbers (totally matching). So I've posted these same photos, and many more, over for the experts at the Gun Boards French Forum for feedback. We'll see what they say. At this point I'm not sure what I've found, but hoping for the best!
-Last photo shows the M.27 with a 1886 93 R35 carbine for comparison

 

[Mooseman]

Nice find.

 

[ma_deuce]

Maybe they made an ultra-short version for ease in running away from the battlefield.

 

[Chaunsey]

wow, beautiful condition.

im always kinda looking out for these now and then as id like to get a nice one at some point, and you dont see many lebels of any kind in as good condition as that.

 

[mawkie]

Mystery solved. It's a mousqueton (musket). Apparently the French experimented with a shorter 500mm barrel length version early in production and decided that the muzzle flash was excessive (a la the M38/M44) and made the 600mm barrel standard. Don't know how many of these were produced but there couldn't have been many as it's thought only 1200 M.27s were built in total. One surfaced back in 2007 but that was the only one I could find recorded. For you Mosin fans this would be the rough equivalent of finding a 1907 Carbine prototype.
What has me puzzled is why they converted so many rifle length Lebels to the short R35 carbine later on if the M27 musket wasn't acceptable. I cannot believe that the muzzle flash would be any less. And the R35 was anything but a success as it only held 3 rounds and kicked like a mule (it's noticeable lighter than this M27 Musket due to the thinner barrel).

 

[vin]

Nice find, and a cool story on that rifle.

 

[Augie]

Nice find on a rare rifle.

 

[Haides]

Maybe they made an ultra-short version for ease in running away from the battlefield.

"FOR SALE- FRENCH MILITARY RIFLE. NEVER USED. DROPPED ONCE."

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Maybe it's the Irish French version...a little shorter. Happy St Patty's Day! Nice find.

 

[bones2586]

Great find and enjoyed reading the history info. Enjoy!!

 

[NiteOwl]

That's a beauty. Nice find. And it sounds like it's extremely rare, so you definitely made out well. May we all be so fortunate in the future.

 

[Machodoc]

Man ... Mawkie scores big again! I really like the looks of that one!

 

[Jimbob2.0]

Pennsylvania is a strange land, but home all the same.

Great find

 

[mawkie]

Patrick over on Gun Boards thinks that the barrel markings denote this was a prototype. I've got some rare stuff in the collection but this one is at the top of the list.

 

[mawkie]

Pennsylvania is a strange land, but home all the same.

Great find

This auction house doesn't have a FFL so they only deal with long guns. Before the auction started the Amish auctioneer told everyone "I want you all to know that what we are doing is perfectly legal. Someone turned us into the ATF and they visited us recently but they reassured us that we are legal. I'm not angry at the person who turned us in. Just wanted everyone to know that." Woa, somebody must have been real angry to drop a dime on the Amish!
If the Feds pass a universal background check their gun auctions, as currently conducted, will have to end. Hope it doesn't come to that as they run a good business with excellent support.
BTW, I was born and grew up in Western PA. The county I grew up in had more firearms per capita than any county in the state. Good luck to anyone who wants to ban and confiscate guns in that part of the country!

 

[Jimbob2.0]

This auction house doesn't have a FFL so they only deal with long guns. Before the auction started the Amish auctioneer told everyone "I want you all to know that what we are doing is perfectly legal. Someone turned us into the ATF and they visited us recently but they reassured us that we are legal. I'm not angry at the person who turned us in. Just wanted everyone to know that." Woa, somebody must have been real angry to drop a dime on the Amish!
If the Feds pass a universal background check their gun auctions, as currently conducted, will have to end. Hope it doesn't come to that as they run a good business with excellent support.
BTW, I was born and grew up in Western PA. The county I grew up in had more firearms per capita than any county in the state. Good luck to anyone who wants to ban and confiscate guns in that part of the country!

Tell me about it, I grew up in South Central, and still maintain intrests (and probably will be buried there, those rumbled hills they call mountains are where I belong). BTW just as a practical matter, the Amish are a great source of obsolete brass things like .30-40 are still standard for them.

 

[mawkie]

Tell me about it, I grew up in South Central, and still maintain intrests (and probably will be buried there, those rumbled hills they call mountains are where I belong). BTW just as a practical matter, the Amish are a great source of obsolete brass things like .30-40 are still standard for them.

That's so true. I was sitting next to a guy who was buying all the .30-40 he could get to feed his Krag habit and there was a fair amount of it being sold that day.

 

[Machodoc]

This auction house doesn't have a FFL so they only deal with long guns. Before the auction started the Amish auctioneer told everyone "I want you all to know that what we are doing is perfectly legal. Someone turned us into the ATF and they visited us recently but they reassured us that we are legal. I'm not angry at the person who turned us in. Just wanted everyone to know that." Woa, somebody must have been real angry to drop a dime on the Amish!

Probably some "English" antique hunter, who was all caught up in TV reports about the alleged "gun show loophole", thought they were saving the nation by reporting the sale of Amish machine guns.

If the Feds pass a universal background check their gun auctions, as currently conducted, will have to end. Hope it doesn't come to that as they run a good business with excellent support.

No, it probably wouldn't stop them, but they might have to hire someone from the English community to come in and make the NICS calls. But that does pose an interesting question: I wonder if a case could be made that the government is creating a constraint of trade by imposing a law that violates their religion?

 

[blackcrow]

Hi everyone, wonder name of auction house sounds like fun.

 

[Machodoc]

Mawkie - This is one of those threads that I keep having to visit, just to look at the beautiful photos. That's a great find, Bud!