Straight Wall Cartridges for Deer

[akalma]

Anybody using the 350 legend this upcoming deer shotgun season?

I just finished building 350 legend upper, it shoots good with factory winchester fmj 145gn. I'm considering to start reloading this cartridge.

 

[lazarus]

If you do your part the deer will go down.

I have to lol at blood trial though. 9 times out of 10 you won't need one if you do your part. As for the 1 time, there will usually be a blood trail. Occasionally all the fat might close over the wound. But I've seen that happen with slugs too. My experience is that if there is no blood trail, its not because of the cartridge, its because *cough* someone missed. As in, dont shoot running deer.

When it comes down to it, I've need to trail all but two deer I've ever shot. Those four dropped within sight. That said, only two times has a deer gone far on me and one was my fault indirectly and the other was pretty much my fault directly and both were found through persistence. I've never lost a deer that I am confident I had a fatal hit on.

In general blood trails have been excellent except for two deer (one that went far), including the two that dropped in sight.

One deer that went far, but left an okay blood trail was indirectly my fault in that I did not test the EXACT equipment I was using. The crossbow mechanical heads I was using I didn't test the actual heads, just using the practice tip and I had switched crossbows. The faster crossbow was causing the mechanical heads to open in flight and the arrows fly low. I didn't realize it and it wasn't an issue with the slower bow and it also wasn't an issue for closer shots with the new bow because the two deer I had taken with the new bow the previous season where at VERY short ranges (like 12-14yds). The shots had seemed low, but I figured that was me and not anticipating the scope offset.

Then next season opening day I shot a doe from about 30yds. Gut/liver shot. It left a decent blood trail, but I started trailing her too soon (I only waited an hour because I thought the shot was better). Bumped her and wasn't able to get another bolt in her because she ran when I was 50yds away (she had bedded down about 100yds from where I had shot her). I waited another hour and a half. When she bumped, she didn't go far. It STILL took another 2 hours plus to find her bedded down across the creek and through the bamboo woods she was bedded near (about 75yds from where I bumped her). Barely alive. I got up about 10yds from her before I had a clear shot, she lurched up and feel into the creek and I got a bolt in through her lungs as she staggered on the opposite bank. I am pretty sure she would not have gone far before expiring and might not have made it out of the mostly dry creek bed.

I made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot.

One I hit, but it was not a fatal hit on, I just totally whiffed the shot from my tree stand as the small doe took a step so my bolt shaved its back, rather than hit it in the vitals. If I'd had a compound I could have gotten an arrow in her as she ran 30yds and stood just to the side of my stand 10yds away, but I couldn't cock my crossbow by hand and no way to not have her see my trying to use the stirrup in my stand. I could clearly see I shaved her back and left a small cut on the top of her back, but it didn't look like it would have needed stitches from a vet if she was livestock.

One that was also me, was my last deer late season last year. A good sized doe at around 50yds from a ground blind in the snow. She was quartering towards me more than I thought she was, so what would have been a perfect broadside shot, or even if she was quartering towards me some, was a not so good sharp quartering shot. It blew a lung, vaporized her liver and managed to go out right at the back of her diaphragm. BUT, it sucked out a coil of intestine (didn't rupture intestine or rumen/stomach). The intestine plugged the exit wound. So very little blood trail. She RAN. Maybe a good 200yds before she tipped over. The terrain was crappy to find her because it was swampy with tons of little depressions and she dropped right in to one. Even standing on the "high ground" you can't see into the little depressions from more than 15-20yds away. The decent blood trail turned in to drops of blood after about 50yds and then flecks of blood for about another 50 and because she was with 3 other does, there were trails that all followed each other, but eventually there were several trails headed in different directions. So it took a long time following the different trails in the snow once the blood stopped. Probably 2hrs of tracking and backtracking and I was feeling like I needed to sit down and collect my thoughts for an hour. The shot had felt good and looked good on how she reacted (despite not dropping immediately). I took a deep breath and then saw a hoof sticking up from a depression 20yds away. Yup, she had dropped in to the most hidden of all of them and no way I would have been able to see her without being within 10yds of her if it wasn't for the hoof sticking up. I probably would have found her even without that, but it would have been awhile longer. I mean, how long do you follow hoof prints through the snow before you figure it must have been one of the other deer. I'd followed each track for about 15 minutes each and then back tracked to where they tracks diverged, which is also where the last tiny flecks of blood in the snow was. Super helpful that. I was back to heading back again and following each trail even further. I was kind of flummoxed she had gone so far and more so looking at the damage. The one lung was shredded and her liver torn in half and pulverized with a big tear through the diaphragm where the bullet exited. So she managed to go roughly 300yds on one lung (and NOT a double lung) full of air and dropping blood pressure.

If that shot hadn't dragged the coil of intestine out the exit wound, the blood trail would have been significantly better and she would have been easy to track. Of course if I'd done my part and aimed even an inch further forward (and I didn't mess up the shot, the bullet went exactly where I knew I had been aiming) it would have hit the back of the other lung and existed still in the thoracic cavity and all it could have dragged out the exit would have been lung tissue...dropping her much sooner (also with an excellent blood trail).

More lessons learned.

The other dozen and a half or so deer I've shot in my 7 years of hunting, 4 dropped in sight (one from a double lung muzzleloader shot, one from a crossbow heart shot, one from a 12ga shot through the lungs that nearly blew a leg off, one from a spine hit). Most of the rest left excellent blood trails and dropped within 100yds, but not out of sight due to terrain as it's been all wooded areas. Some went just over the crest of the hill we were on and dropped right at the top out of sight. Or went down to my creek and dropped out of sight near the creek spraying blood as they went. The one totally bizarre instance was a muzzleloader heart shot that took off and the shot looked excellent. Took a couple of hours to find him in the failing light. I couldn't find a blood trail anywhere, neither at where I thought he was standing or anywhere along the way, even after I eventually found him and backtracked. He didn't head quite the direction I had thought and had actually dropped just out of sight, but I thought it had veered went it hadn't and found him when I was thinking maybe I should give up and look in the morning. "Let me go stand on those rocks to get a better view in the woods". The pile of rocks was the buck. Blew its heart apart, but it didn't look like the bullet opened properly as the exit was small in the ribs and the hide (240gr .44 XTP), which was odd. Part of why I switched to 300gr .44 XTPs as I am pretty sure with the charge I was using; I am pushing those 240s way past their max velocity. The 300s are at the top end of their velocity, but not past it. Still amazed he ran about 100yds before dropping. No blood trail I could find and it did look like probably some brisket fat covered the entrance and exit was my best guess for why it didn't seem to bleed.

I've learned a lot of lessons over the years. Never shot at a running deer and I don't plan to unless it is running straight at me like it's decided to take me with it. Mistakes do happen, and it's our responsibility to reduce the possibility of mistakes and accidents, but I don't think it is possible to eliminate them. IMHO, it doesn't matter the hunting implement, even with a perfect vital zone shot, with a legal hunting device, sometimes the deer isn't going to drop within sight. Especially depending on the terrain. On my property from a ground blind, the deer can be out of sight within 20yds depending on where the ground blind is and where you hit the deer. Even from a stand it can be out of sight within 40yds in some cases. DRT rarely happens with a bow/crossbow. Even with muzzleloaders, shotguns and rifles, DRT isn't a guarantee. In addition to my experiences, I've watched plenty of deer hit with more than sufficient calibers right through the lungs or heart and still run 100+ yards in open fields before tipping over.

But there isn't really a way to guarantee a blood trail. Per my examples above, I had one decent hit (that sharp quartering, it still should have been a better shot, but she was a survivor for sure) and one perfect shot (ML through the heart) and they ran varying amounts of far to very far after the lethal hits. Circumstances conspired to leave little to no blood trail. Maybe I'd been running a 300 win mag rather than a 6.5 grendel or a different bullet in my muzzleloader the extra damage would have prevented the exits from plugging, but based on the damage caused, I don't see a difference in what I was using dropping either animal any faster.

So in roughly 20 deer in my life, only twice was there no to nearly no blood trail. The deer in the snow, the blood trail was minimal enough there is no chance I would have been able to follow it if there hadn't been snow. I probably would have been able to pick up the blood trail at first (so long as no rain), but the deer were weaving through the woods/swamp so much I would have lost it quickly. When it had turned to flecks of blood, I would have had 0 chance of finding those if it wasn't for the snow. Persistence MIGHT have paid off and I would have found her. But as short a distance as I was able to see in the terrain (I mean, I could SEE for more than 100yds, but I couldn't see in to any of those depressions more than 10-20yds away) and that I probably wouldn't have been able to see hoof prints or know how old they were (versus it had snowed overnight, so any hoof prints had happened between dawn and when I shot her around 11am). I am not sure I would have found her on my own. Maybe. I was willing to and would have put in all day, but I just as easily could have missed her even with another 4-5hrs of looking. If I could have gotten 1-2 other people to help, I probably would have found her (not sure I could have, I was on the Eastern shore, not back home in HoCo).

All the other deer that dropped out of sight, just sprayed blood everywhere and were found within 1-5 minutes of starting to look. Even if they hadn't, they would have been found at worse within maybe 15-20 minutes of looking without a trail.

 

[Trepang]

 

[camo556]

 

[Trepang]

My JM Marlins, both .45-70

 

[Harrys]

My JM Marlins, both .45-70
View attachment 374275

They be prudy. My Boom Sticks 45/70 Henry and Big Horn Armory .500 S&W Magnum Carbine. The Carbine holds 7 rounds the Henry holds 5 rounds. I made the slings and case holsers.

 

[hobiecat590]

When it comes down to it, I've need to trail all but two deer I've ever shot. Those four dropped within sight. That said, only two times has a deer gone far on me and one was my fault indirectly and the other was pretty much my fault directly and both were found through persistence. I've never lost a deer that I am confident I had a fatal hit on.

In general blood trails have been excellent except for two deer (one that went far), including the two that dropped in sight.

One deer that went far, but left an okay blood trail was indirectly my fault in that I did not test the EXACT equipment I was using. The crossbow mechanical heads I was using I didn't test the actual heads, just using the practice tip and I had switched crossbows. The faster crossbow was causing the mechanical heads to open in flight and the arrows fly low. I didn't realize it and it wasn't an issue with the slower bow and it also wasn't an issue for closer shots with the new bow because the two deer I had taken with the new bow the previous season where at VERY short ranges (like 12-14yds). The shots had seemed low, but I figured that was me and not anticipating the scope offset.

Then next season opening day I shot a doe from about 30yds. Gut/liver shot. It left a decent blood trail, but I started trailing her too soon (I only waited an hour because I thought the shot was better). Bumped her and wasn't able to get another bolt in her because she ran when I was 50yds away (she had bedded down about 100yds from where I had shot her). I waited another hour and a half. When she bumped, she didn't go far. It STILL took another 2 hours plus to find her bedded down across the creek and through the bamboo woods she was bedded near (about 75yds from where I bumped her). Barely alive. I got up about 10yds from her before I had a clear shot, she lurched up and feel into the creek and I got a bolt in through her lungs as she staggered on the opposite bank. I am pretty sure she would not have gone far before expiring and might not have made it out of the mostly dry creek bed.

I made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot.

One I hit, but it was not a fatal hit on, I just totally whiffed the shot from my tree stand as the small doe took a step so my bolt shaved its back, rather than hit it in the vitals. If I'd had a compound I could have gotten an arrow in her as she ran 30yds and stood just to the side of my stand 10yds away, but I couldn't cock my crossbow by hand and no way to not have her see my trying to use the stirrup in my stand. I could clearly see I shaved her back and left a small cut on the top of her back, but it didn't look like it would have needed stitches from a vet if she was livestock.

One that was also me, was my last deer late season last year. A good sized doe at around 50yds from a ground blind in the snow. She was quartering towards me more than I thought she was, so what would have been a perfect broadside shot, or even if she was quartering towards me some, was a not so good sharp quartering shot. It blew a lung, vaporized her liver and managed to go out right at the back of her diaphragm. BUT, it sucked out a coil of intestine (didn't rupture intestine or rumen/stomach). The intestine plugged the exit wound. So very little blood trail. She RAN. Maybe a good 200yds before she tipped over. The terrain was crappy to find her because it was swampy with tons of little depressions and she dropped right in to one. Even standing on the "high ground" you can't see into the little depressions from more than 15-20yds away. The decent blood trail turned in to drops of blood after about 50yds and then flecks of blood for about another 50 and because she was with 3 other does, there were trails that all followed each other, but eventually there were several trails headed in different directions. So it took a long time following the different trails in the snow once the blood stopped. Probably 2hrs of tracking and backtracking and I was feeling like I needed to sit down and collect my thoughts for an hour. The shot had felt good and looked good on how she reacted (despite not dropping immediately). I took a deep breath and then saw a hoof sticking up from a depression 20yds away. Yup, she had dropped in to the most hidden of all of them and no way I would have been able to see her without being within 10yds of her if it wasn't for the hoof sticking up. I probably would have found her even without that, but it would have been awhile longer. I mean, how long do you follow hoof prints through the snow before you figure it must have been one of the other deer. I'd followed each track for about 15 minutes each and then back tracked to where they tracks diverged, which is also where the last tiny flecks of blood in the snow was. Super helpful that. I was back to heading back again and following each trail even further. I was kind of flummoxed she had gone so far and more so looking at the damage. The one lung was shredded and her liver torn in half and pulverized with a big tear through the diaphragm where the bullet exited. So she managed to go roughly 300yds on one lung (and NOT a double lung) full of air and dropping blood pressure.

If that shot hadn't dragged the coil of intestine out the exit wound, the blood trail would have been significantly better and she would have been easy to track. Of course if I'd done my part and aimed even an inch further forward (and I didn't mess up the shot, the bullet went exactly where I knew I had been aiming) it would have hit the back of the other lung and existed still in the thoracic cavity and all it could have dragged out the exit would have been lung tissue...dropping her much sooner (also with an excellent blood trail).

More lessons learned.

The other dozen and a half or so deer I've shot in my 7 years of hunting, 4 dropped in sight (one from a double lung muzzleloader shot, one from a crossbow heart shot, one from a 12ga shot through the lungs that nearly blew a leg off, one from a spine hit). Most of the rest left excellent blood trails and dropped within 100yds, but not out of sight due to terrain as it's been all wooded areas. Some went just over the crest of the hill we were on and dropped right at the top out of sight. Or went down to my creek and dropped out of sight near the creek spraying blood as they went. The one totally bizarre instance was a muzzleloader heart shot that took off and the shot looked excellent. Took a couple of hours to find him in the failing light. I couldn't find a blood trail anywhere, neither at where I thought he was standing or anywhere along the way, even after I eventually found him and backtracked. He didn't head quite the direction I had thought and had actually dropped just out of sight, but I thought it had veered went it hadn't and found him when I was thinking maybe I should give up and look in the morning. "Let me go stand on those rocks to get a better view in the woods". The pile of rocks was the buck. Blew its heart apart, but it didn't look like the bullet opened properly as the exit was small in the ribs and the hide (240gr .44 XTP), which was odd. Part of why I switched to 300gr .44 XTPs as I am pretty sure with the charge I was using; I am pushing those 240s way past their max velocity. The 300s are at the top end of their velocity, but not past it. Still amazed he ran about 100yds before dropping. No blood trail I could find and it did look like probably some brisket fat covered the entrance and exit was my best guess for why it didn't seem to bleed.

I've learned a lot of lessons over the years. Never shot at a running deer and I don't plan to unless it is running straight at me like it's decided to take me with it. Mistakes do happen, and it's our responsibility to reduce the possibility of mistakes and accidents, but I don't think it is possible to eliminate them. IMHO, it doesn't matter the hunting implement, even with a perfect vital zone shot, with a legal hunting device, sometimes the deer isn't going to drop within sight. Especially depending on the terrain. On my property from a ground blind, the deer can be out of sight within 20yds depending on where the ground blind is and where you hit the deer. Even from a stand it can be out of sight within 40yds in some cases. DRT rarely happens with a bow/crossbow. Even with muzzleloaders, shotguns and rifles, DRT isn't a guarantee. In addition to my experiences, I've watched plenty of deer hit with more than sufficient calibers right through the lungs or heart and still run 100+ yards in open fields before tipping over.

But there isn't really a way to guarantee a blood trail. Per my examples above, I had one decent hit (that sharp quartering, it still should have been a better shot, but she was a survivor for sure) and one perfect shot (ML through the heart) and they ran varying amounts of far to very far after the lethal hits. Circumstances conspired to leave little to no blood trail. Maybe I'd been running a 300 win mag rather than a 6.5 grendel or a different bullet in my muzzleloader the extra damage would have prevented the exits from plugging, but based on the damage caused, I don't see a difference in what I was using dropping either animal any faster.

So in roughly 20 deer in my life, only twice was there no to nearly no blood trail. The deer in the snow, the blood trail was minimal enough there is no chance I would have been able to follow it if there hadn't been snow. I probably would have been able to pick up the blood trail at first (so long as no rain), but the deer were weaving through the woods/swamp so much I would have lost it quickly. When it had turned to flecks of blood, I would have had 0 chance of finding those if it wasn't for the snow. Persistence MIGHT have paid off and I would have found her. But as short a distance as I was able to see in the terrain (I mean, I could SEE for more than 100yds, but I couldn't see in to any of those depressions more than 10-20yds away) and that I probably wouldn't have been able to see hoof prints or know how old they were (versus it had snowed overnight, so any hoof prints had happened between dawn and when I shot her around 11am). I am not sure I would have found her on my own. Maybe. I was willing to and would have put in all day, but I just as easily could have missed her even with another 4-5hrs of looking. If I could have gotten 1-2 other people to help, I probably would have found her (not sure I could have, I was on the Eastern shore, not back home in HoCo).

All the other deer that dropped out of sight, just sprayed blood everywhere and were found within 1-5 minutes of starting to look. Even if they hadn't, they would have been found at worse within maybe 15-20 minutes of looking without a trail.

Nice recap. Try a shoulder shot this year. An old timer I know swears this works every time and some I-net articles seem to concur. All the nerve bundles allegedly are concentrated in this area and if hit will short circuit a deer's nervous system dropping them in their tracks. I tried this for the first time last year and it worked although the 45/70 may have had something to do w/ it. :-)

I have found when you blow up their hearts, they will run as you described but w/ the pump gone, there is no blood trail to follow. even though they will run 50-100 yards. Double lung shots w/ muzzle loaders often won't have an exit wound and the blood trail won't start until 50+ yards in some cases. Double lungs w/ rifles will usually reliably produce a blood trail so long as the heart is still working. This is also where I target crossbow bolts for the same reason since they usually go completely thru the deer that will continue running up to 100 yards or so. Good luck this season.

 

[lazarus]

Nice recap. Try a shoulder shot this year. An old timer I know swears this works every time and some I-net articles seem to concur. All the nerve bundles allegedly are concentrated in this area and if hit will short circuit a deer's nervous system dropping them in their tracks. I tried this for the first time last year and it worked although the 45/70 may have had something to do w/ it. :-)

I have found when you blow up their hearts, they will run as you described but w/ the pump gone, there is no blood trail to follow. even though they will run 50-100 yards. Double lung shots w/ muzzle loaders often won't have an exit wound and the blood trail won't start until 50+ yards in some cases. Double lungs w/ rifles will usually reliably produce a blood trail so long as the heart is still working. This is also where I target crossbow bolts for the same reason since they usually go completely thru the deer that will continue running up to 100 yards or so. Good luck this season.

I am tempted on a shoulder shot, but I want to ruin as little meat as possible. And yeah, that's a downside to a heart should is they aren't pumping a bunch of blood depending on how it's done. Granted, I only have a single double lung hit on a deer with a ML (one heart shot, one spine shot, one double lung shot). The first one I ever harvested. Big 8 point. Left a good blood trail, but also dropped in sight. Thumb entrance striking one rib, 4 finger exit taking out two ribs. Just liquified lungs left.

 

[hobiecat590]

I am tempted on a shoulder shot, but I want to ruin as little meat as possible. And yeah, that's a downside to a heart should is they aren't pumping a bunch of blood depending on how it's done. Granted, I only have a single double lung hit on a deer with a ML (one heart shot, one spine shot, one double lung shot). The first one I ever harvested. Big 8 point. Left a good blood trail, but also dropped in sight. Thumb entrance striking one rib, 4 finger exit taking out two ribs. Just liquified lungs left.

I had the same concern about wasting meat but a single front shoulder blade steak was worth not having to track the animal that could end up on my neighbors door step with large caliber subsonic type rounds. Please note that double lung shots for high powered rifles will drop a deer w/in 30 ish yard due to hydro-static shock. For example. a 7MM mag will blow up the insides of a deer and waste more meat with a double lung v/s a 25-06 or 6.5 swede or equivalent that are my favorites out west of Frederick county. Here in the east (Region B) the slower heavier calibers wont provide the hydro-static shock so that shoulder or head shot may be more desirable.

I'd really like to hear from some bow or crossbow hunters on the shoulder shot placement v/s double lung. Best of luck.

 

[lazarus]

I had the same concern about wasting meat but a single front shoulder blade steak was worth not having to track the animal that could end up on my neighbors door step with large caliber subsonic type rounds. Please note that double lung shots for high powered rifles will drop a deer w/in 30 ish yard due to hydro-static shock. For example. a 7MM mag will blow up the insides of a deer and waste more meat with a double lung v/s a 25-06 or 6.5 swede or equivalent that are my favorites out west of Frederick county. Here in the east (Region B) the slower heavier calibers wont provide the hydro-static shock so that shoulder or head shot may be more desirable.

I'd really like to hear from some bow or crossbow hunters on the shoulder shot placement v/s double lung. Best of luck.

I have considered it with my crossbow. I have had several heart or double lung shots where it cut the leg bone, then the ribs on both sides and exited.

Once it went clean through at 15yds doing that. Another two times it nearly exited all the way, but the bolt head DID exit the opposite hide, just not enough remaining energy for the entire bolt to exit, with one of those being the addition of having clipped the leg bone on the opposite side (so 4 major bones).

I am highly confident a shoulder shot with a crossbow bolt would go through the first shoulder and lungs. Not sure if it would penetrate and exit the other shoulder too or not. A close shot from my crossbow probably would, though it might lodge in the hide on the opposite shoulder.

I am mostly switching to stand hunting on my property and a shoulder shot from an elevated height doesn't give me warm fuzzies as I think it would be more likely to deflect and or only involve one lung. As someone said to me last season after I shaved the one deer (I was aiming for double lung and it took a step as I shot), aim for the heart with archery every time. If you flub the shot, or it takes a step or whatever a likely miss will just go right under it. No harm, no foul. If you are dead on, its dead in seconds from a heart shot. If you flub high, well you've got roughly a foot high it can go, and it is still hitting heart or lungs before it might go so high that it is missing the lungs and going through the back (and just a bit higher and it is spining the deer). That and missing high is a lot more likely than missing low from a bow, unless it is long range and potentially long unknown range.

A shoulder is awfully far forward and high. So missing a bit high or forward is likely to miss the lungs and not be an incapacitating or quickly lethal hit.

Something flat shooting I can see, especially something flat shooting that is likely to generate some bone fragments and hydrostatic shock even if it misses the vitals.

 

[Biggfoot44]

It depends upon the bullet performance .

A high velocity small to medium diameter rapid expanding bullet is more likely to both damage shoulder roast , and be effective on lung shots .

Moderate velocity , large dia , non expanding , deep penetrating is likely to do little meat damage beyond the actual hole , and to break one or both shoulders .

 

[Harrys]

It depends upon the bullet performance .

A high velocity small to medium diameter rapid expanding bullet is more likely to both damage shoulder roast , and be effective on lung shots .

Moderate velocity , large dia , non expanding , deep penetrating is likely to do little meat damage beyond the actual hole , and to break one or both shoulders .

In comparison to my 30/30 160gr HP you are correct more damage than my 45/70 with FNHCGC 375 gr. This year I will be using a .500 S&W BHA Carbine with 350gr FN Berrys. Expect to see about the same type of damage as the 45/70.

 

[Bountied]

I'll be using my .50 Beowulf this year. I'm still waiting for the suppressor for the AR I'll be using.

 

[Harrys]

I'll be using my .50 Beowulf this year. I'm still waiting for the suppressor for the AR I'll be using.

It should be a good round it's ballistics are roughly equivalent to those of early .45-70 Government.

 

[Biggfoot44]

It should be a good round it's ballistics are roughly equivalent to those of early .45-70 Government.

Sort of , if you look at ft lb . But with the larger bore size , it has lower sectional density , FWIW .

With Bambi , not a problem , even a good thing . But for Really Deep penetration , .458 SOCOM ( or .45-70) will penetrate deeper on extra large critters .

 

[boule]

Interesting discussion, going from .357 to .45-70.
I am just questioning the whole idea behind the "straight wall cartridge" for hunting deer. Modern materials can do a lot more than the black powder era cartridges or muzzleloaders. A chunk of lead travelling fast enough will kill pretty much every animal in North America (there is ample evidence for this) but shot placement and energy (distance) are the most important factors in how easy it will be killed. The big difference between a straight wall and a bottleneck cartridge might just be the distance at which an effective hunt is possible but I do not see a safety improvement that everyone else is so happy about. Those who do not believe it, read about the Sandy Hook tests of 1879.

Oh well, back from the rant.
.357 for hunting deer? Afaik the minimum muzzle energy will be a problem unless you handload and have hot loads. It can certainly kill a deer (for shits and giggles, humans are roughly comparable to a goat or deer from a terminal ballistics standpoint) but has little in terms of reserves. You need good shot placement with a lung/heart shot. If you hit the ribs, or shoulder, you might not have an exit wound.
.44 mag? Got plenty of energy but depends on the bullet. Many pistol bullets are not designed to be pushed at rifle velocities and will not produce an exit wound.
Anything 45 or 50 - x..... well, those were buffalo cartridges.

If you ask my personal preference in straight wall rounds - 45/70 with either a 400gr hard cast or 300gr jacketed load. Shot placement is highly dependant on environment and presentation of target. If tracking is going to be a pain in the posterior, go for a mobility kill by targeting the close (quartering to or broadside) or far (quartering away) shoulder and lung. You will spoil some meat but better than spoiling everything due to finding it days later. If tracking is possible, lung/heart shot.

 

[lazarus]

Interesting discussion, going from .357 to .45-70.
I am just questioning the whole idea behind the "straight wall cartridge" for hunting deer. Modern materials can do a lot more than the black powder era cartridges or muzzleloaders. A chunk of lead travelling fast enough will kill pretty much every animal in North America (there is ample evidence for this) but shot placement and energy (distance) are the most important factors in how easy it will be killed. The big difference between a straight wall and a bottleneck cartridge might just be the distance at which an effective hunt is possible but I do not see a safety improvement that everyone else is so happy about. Those who do not believe it, read about the Sandy Hook tests of 1879.

Oh well, back from the rant.
.357 for hunting deer? Afaik the minimum muzzle energy will be a problem unless you handload and have hot loads. It can certainly kill a deer (for shits and giggles, humans are roughly comparable to a goat or deer from a terminal ballistics standpoint) but has little in terms of reserves. You need good shot placement with a lung/heart shot. If you hit the ribs, or shoulder, you might not have an exit wound.
.44 mag? Got plenty of energy but depends on the bullet. Many pistol bullets are not designed to be pushed at rifle velocities and will not produce an exit wound.
Anything 45 or 50 - x..... well, those were buffalo cartridges.

If you ask my personal preference in straight wall rounds - 45/70 with either a 400gr hard cast or 300gr jacketed load. Shot placement is highly dependant on environment and presentation of target. If tracking is going to be a pain in the posterior, go for a mobility kill by targeting the close (quartering to or broadside) or far (quartering away) shoulder and lung. You will spoil some meat but better than spoiling everything due to finding it days later. If tracking is possible, lung/heart shot.

It is still a safety improvement, even if it isn't the difference between "extremely safe" and "horribly unsafe". Look at the ballistics of most straight wall cartridges and you have a maximum range if you shot it out at a 45 degree angle of around 1.5-2 miles. A .30-06 shot at a 45 degree angle goes, what? About 6 miles?

Just shot at a 100yd target, with a 100yd zero, on flat ground, a .30-06 from man height won't hit the ground until around 400-500yds. A typical round from a .357, .44 magnum, .450 BM, etc. are all going to hit the ground at around 250-300yds. It gets a lot worse if you miss a bit high on that 100yd target. That .30-06 can easily go 800-1000yds. That straight wall cartridge is likely to only travel around 400-500yds.

It is for sure not a black or white situation, but the bottle neck cartridge is IN GENERAL going to have a much longer/larger lethal/dangerous zone than a straight wall cartridge will.

Sure, on the mags out of a rifle, you need to have somewhat careful selection of the specific cartridge used or bullet in reloading. But plenty of them will hold together at the much higher velocities of a rifle. For example, most of the magnum XTP bullets have velocity ranges that will go up to "hot rifle load" for the magnum. In a few cases you can sure load it higher than the rated velocity at the muzzle. In most cases though it has still dropped into the velocity range by even 50yds shedding 50-100fps.

If you hit a shoulder, you probably don't need to worry about an exit wound. Ribs aren't likely to break-up the bullet at most of the velocities involved. Or honestly in this case if it does, the bullets aren't moving so much faster they just turn in to tiny fragments. These are still magnum bullets, so you'll typically have a few large fragments and bone. You'll rip apart at least one lung, if not perforate both lungs and possibly the heart if you hit ribs and the bullet fragments.

It DOES emphasize thought that you should NOT be using light for caliber bullets out of magnum rifles. You don't want to be using a hyper velocity 110gr .357 out of a rifle for deer hunting. You want a 158/180gr. Same with a .44 magnum. Don't bring a 180/200gr to the table when you really want a 240-300gr.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The big deal about straight wall cartridges , is that they can be used statewide , including previous Shotgun & ML only Counties .

The relevant baseline of comparison is to shotgun slugs , not high velocity bottleneck ctgs .

 

[DutchV]

<snip>
.357 for hunting deer? Afaik the minimum muzzle energy will be a problem unless you handload and have hot loads.
<snip>

Buffalo Bore has a few that will make enough energy to meet the MD requirement. Scroll down for the charts.

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN - 2

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

www.buffalobore.com

 

[Harrys]

When I lived in louisiana, many of the hunters had 357 mags for their back ups. A few did use them for deer hunting if the deer were close 25 yards or so. I carried a rugar single six 44 mag my hog leg as they called it especially when fishing in the bayou.

We were out hog hunting and I was using a friends Mauser bolt action 45/70 and had never used one before. He was using a 357 magnum bolt action. He shot a hog 3 times before it expired. The 45/70 was one shot and done. That was when I had to get me one a 45/70. I have had a 45/70 in the locker from that day on.

I am not a big fan of anything smaller than a 44 mag for deer hunting. A friend had a Henry 357 lever action rifle and had to chase every deer he shot. He eventually sold it and bought a marlin 45/70 and never chaised a deer again.

I have hunted from alaska to maine and used a 45/70 for bear, deer, elk, moose, coyotes and hogs have only had to follow a bear for 50 yrds. The others dropped right where they stood. Any thing larger than a deer I use 500gr HCFNGC rounds. The longest shot was 150 yards for the bear. Shoulder shots for all except for a coyote hit him in the head. The 45/70 has been around for 150 years for good reasons.