Saiga rifles?

[jodavk]

I have had them in .223, 5.45x39, & 7.62x39. I was lucky enough to get two of them with OEM thumbhole stocks. The 5.45 is good for 1 to 1.5" groups at 100yds. But that is bench rest with scope. I enjoy shooting them a lot and the 5.45 is still very "cheap" to shoot. It is a shame that the $10-$15 Bulgarian milsurp mags are gone! My 5.45 doesn't need a bullet guide and has been 100% reliable. I got lucky

 

[Sirex]

I have had them in .223, 5.45x39, & 7.62x39. I was lucky enough to get two of them with OEM thumbhole stocks. The 5.45 is good for 1 to 1.5" groups at 100yds. But that is bench rest with scope. I enjoy shooting them a lot and the 5.45 is still very "cheap" to shoot. It is a shame that the $10-$15 Bulgarian milsurp mags are gone! My 5.45 doesn't need a bullet guide and has been 100% reliable. I got lucky

Are you talking about Veprs? I have never seen a "Saiga" thumbhole. If so, do you have a picture? Sounds cool

 

[jodavk]

Yes, Saiga factory thumbhole stocks. I will look for a pic of one and post it. My first 7.62x39 came with one. I later found just the Saiga stock for sale from someone who converted a 5.45x39; so I bought it and tried it on my .223. It is now on my 5.45. The .223 is gone and of course now I wish I had kept it!

 

[jodavk]

 

[Sirex]

Ah, okay. Looks good. I had the same one on my x39 for a brief time, but I bought mine on Ebay. I thought they were all aftermarket.

 

[Oldcarjunkie]

Had two Saiga 308's, sold one to another member who im sure is having a blast with it. nice rifles

 

[54rndball]

Maybe Duffy's could get Saiga rifles.

 

[ST19AG_WGreymon]

I regretfully sold my AK-74 clone and picked up a 7.62x39 Saiga months before the SB281 bill was even in the works. I intended to get another 5.45 AK but the model I wanted was out of stock due to the panic.

 

[AlpineDude67]

This is great news. I thought the language about any AK caught all the Saiga rifles too. I would be just fine with getting one and leaving it bone stock. Depending on the price I might actually buy one in 5.45 and one in 7.62 also.

Group buy?

 

[amoebicmagician]

THIS IS GREAT!

with a thumbhole stock, I'm good.

Jodavk:
are you saying you were able to use standard mags in your 5.45 Saiga without installing a bullet guide or doing any other conversion?

 

[ST19AG_WGreymon]

THIS IS GREAT!

with a thumbhole stock, I'm good.

Jodavk:
are you saying you were able to use standard mags in your 5.45 Saiga without installing a bullet guide or doing any other conversion?

A stock 5.45 Saiga will feed rounds just fine from the stock magazines, they have a built-in bullet guide. It will also feed from mil-surp magazine although you may encounter a jam every now and then.

 

[erwos]

You guys are jumping the gun. Relying on a 20 year old bulletin to interpret a not year old law is the definition of a bad idea. Until the MSP puts it in writing post 10/1, I would consider them still banned.

Remember: much like AG opinions, the MSP bulletin does NOT have the force of law. (Arguably, the MSP bulletin has even less weight than an AG opinion in court.) If some county cop decides your new Saiga is an AK copy in a different format, which they'd be right about, your ass is going to jail.

 

[Scott7891]

You guys are jumping the gun. Relying on a 20 year old bulletin to interpret a not year old law is the definition of a bad idea. Until the MSP puts it in writing post 10/1, I would consider them still banned.

Remember: much like AG opinions, the MSP bulletin does NOT have the force of law. (Arguably, the MSP bulletin has even less weight than an AG opinion in court.) If some county cop decides your new Saiga is an AK copy in a different format, which they'd be right about, your ass is going to jail.

Except your average beat cop doesn't know gun laws or guns period. Plus since there is no registration how would he know that you had it prior to 10/1? If cops are going to jump the gun like you said they are then we shouldn't be bringing out our grandfathered AK's ever again since there is no proof unless one rides around with his receipts.

Also the Saiga has enough proprietary parts to make it not compatible with a real AK unless one does a lot of illegal gunsmithing at this point.

Again point me where in the new law that the bulletin says it no longer applies and tell the MSP who told the dealers at my meeting they are full of it. I have evidence as well since I worked in a gun shop and have first-hand experience in this matter of what the MSP told my dealers. Yea they were flabbergasted too but they said the MSP told them basic Saiga's are still legal.

By your interpretation any HBAR but the specific Colt Target HBAR of 90's vintage with nothing but a heavy barrel, no muzzle attachments of any kind and its copies are banned too because I saw of no AG opinion that said otherwise either.

 

[erwos]

"I work in a gun shop" doesn't impress me at all, given the number of idiots who work in gun shops and the amazingly nonsensical interpretations of the law I've heard from them. The MSP meetings were full of misinformation, too. The only thing that impresses me is recent MSP or AG guidance in writing.

The law says "AK rifle in any format". That is exceptionally broad compared to nearly all of the entries. And, BTW: your reference to what kind of HBARs are not banned is more on target than you think. Indeed, the MSP told the MFLDA once upon a time that only fixed stock HBARs were not banned. Still think that's true?

I understand where you are coming from, but you are advocating some very risky behavior while not even acknowledging there could be risks.

One other thing:

Except your average beat cop doesn't know gun laws or guns period. Plus since there is no registration how would he know that you had it prior to 10/1? If cops are going to jump the gun like you said they are then we shouldn't be bringing out our grandfathered AK's ever again since there is no proof unless one rides around with his receipts.

The new law gives the MSP a LOT of power to get records out of shops sans warrant, and your federal forms are stored for basically forever. I would not count on the MSP not being able to dig up your paperwork if they had a mind to do so... especially if, say, you're an employee at a particular gun shop. Kind of a tip-off.

 

[Scott7891]

The law says "AK rifle in any format". That is exceptionally broad compared to nearly all of the entries.

It had to be because of the numerous AK's in different calibers coming off the boat during that period. Since the law says "specific" model instead of writing down every model of AK coming in they did a catchall phrase. However their meaning at the time was pre-'89 AK's. All of the new AK's coming in at that point were not "assault weapons" under the law including the Saiga. That is why the MSP had to make a bulletin to further clarify that point even showing an AK as an example.

And, BTW: your reference to what kind of HBARs are not banned is more on target than you think. Indeed, the MSP told the MFLDA once upon a time that only fixed stock HBARs were not banned. Still think that's true?

Yes I do. Of course it isn't my business to say how gun shop owners run their business.

The 1990's Colt HBAR only had a fixed stock.

The federal law on imported AK's only added that they can't have the ability to take mags more than 10 rounds. It isn't rocket science to figure out what AK's are okay and which one's aren't but I'll make it easy:

Saiga
VEPR
WASR-10/2/3 w/ thumbhole stock, single stack magwell, no threads or permanently hidden threads
Zastava PAP M70/77
Maadi MISR-10 in the same format as the WASR above
Pump-action AK's

Everything else banned.

I understand where you are coming from, but you are advocating some very risky behavior while not even acknowledging there could be risks.

Buying any modern black rifle today is risky considering the amount of ignorance out there.

One other thing:

The new law gives the MSP a LOT of power to get records out of shops sans warrant, and your federal forms are stored for basically forever. I would not count on the MSP not being able to dig up your paperwork if they had a mind to do so... especially if, say, you're an employee at a particular gun shop. Kind of a tip-off.

I never said it wasn't possible but your average beat cop unless he himself is a hardcore anti or has nothing better to do wouldn't go through with such a task to find out unless at this point what you did was so heinous to warrant the stop that they need more charges to throw at you.

Again a cop seeing an AK in the car is no grounds for automatically assuming it is a post-10/1 illegal AK unless it is made glaringly obvious.

 

[erwos]

The problem is that the bulletin references the now-expired federal AWB. That is worrisome in terms of using it as a legal defense.

I agree with you in the sense that the law deliberately removed registration to avoid the prospect of cops hassling you about your grandfathered guns. I really doubt the state is going to prosecute people for copycat violations unless they are particularly egregious (ie, easily proven and used in some other crime).

I am more concerned that the MSP will turn up Saiga rifle sales during routine FFL audits, and then toss the book at the buyer and seller (who have both committed an illegal act IMHO). I know of one shop going through an audit right now; not a lot of fun, so I understand.

 

[Scott7891]

The problem is that the bulletin references the now-expired federal AWB. That is worrisome in terms of using it as a legal defense.

Nope it actually references the 1989 Import Ban which is still in effect. The law states what features make it an AW. They are:

Pistol grip
Muzzle device
Bayonet lug
Exposed threads
Non-fixed stock

The only thing they added in 1997/8 was that now you can't use double-stack milsurp mags (I.e. a capacity greater than 10 rounds).

The SA-93 was imported as is which is what the bulletin states as the grounds for being not considered an AW. Of course now the SA-93 would not be Maryland compliant because it has the ability to take more than 10 rounds which is against the law to import. Simply if you can't import it then you can't buy it.