SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

[GBMaryland]

You're not going to out spend the government. Each year their budgets just get bigger and bigger (partly due to the prev. years litigation cost..)

Actually, the goal would be to spend my money in the most efficient manner as to cost Maryland more that I spend.

Plus, to be honest, I would also sue EACH INDIVDUAL TROOPER that touched the file... With the expressed purpose of ensuring that I can prove damages. That is to say make the officers pay with their pensions...

At some point, one of us is going to going to suffer a tradegy where one of our family members is harmed or killed... At that point this become something that a normal $ value doesn't apply for... And a jury will be very sympathetic toward.

;the MSP had best pray it's not a very wealthy Marylander, or someone that I know...

I think may of us have had excellent and professional experiences with the MSP. However, they ARE acting as foot soliders for the State and that makes them liable.

As I've said before, there is a point at which "I was only following orders" doesn't work.

 

[Warpspasm]

I have pictures from my last colonoscopy, should I bring them if I ever get an interview?

I was going to have a colonoscopy, but I didn't want them sticking that tube in my Gansler!

 

[JMangle]

That's just bull s***, next thing they will want is your last proctology exam records.

Not good news for me, my last proctological exam was shitty.

 

[Threeband]

Hypothetically speaking.

You apply for a sales and use tax license. open a business checking account. put 5K in the checking account and spend the next 3 months moving the same cash back and forth from the account various times and various amounts. You file your quarterly and end of year taxes showing 0 profit and 0 tax collected . To the best of anyones knowledge would this be illegal and if so why.

You're talking about playing their old game by their old rules. You're talking about manufacturing a justification under Good and Substantial.

That's the approach that was sometimes suggested in the days before Woollard. We are beyond that. There's no going back.


"A citizen may not be required to offer a good and substantial reason why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs."

 

[Merlin]

I have pictures from my last colonoscopy, should I bring them if I ever get an interview?

No, it sounds like the MSP are planning on bending you over and giving you another one.

 

[Merlin]

Do they really mail them between offices? I'd think they would "pony express" them with cruisers.

I was told the MSPHQ in Pikesville has a Trooper pick up the mail once each day, but the post office also delivers mail to MSPHQ as well.

 

[2ndCharter]

Hypothetically speaking.

You apply for a sales and use tax license. open a business checking account. put 5K in the checking account and spend the next 3 months moving the same cash back and forth from the account various times and various amounts. You file your quarterly and end of year taxes showing 0 profit and 0 tax collected . To the best of anyones knowledge would this be illegal and if so why.

That isn't necessary. You just need a letter from the bank stating you have an active business account.

 

[SkunkWerX]

pa·thet·ic/pəˈTHetik/
Adjective:
1.Arousing pity, esp. through vulnerability or sadness.
2.Miserably inadequate.


I'll pick 2. , miserably inadequate.

I, much like Patrick, kept thinking the AG's office would craft an argument that may have some apparent flaws, however, would be an argument that needed to be taken apart thoughtfully and methodically. An argument that, at some level, had some flakes of merit, even if it ultimately did not pass the test in court.

But what we have gotten, once again, in this Supp. Brief is the same miserably inadequate drivel.

-The long gun argument? THE LONG GUN ARGUMENT??
Score =miserably inadequate.

-Stating their own inability to keep track of and administer permits due to an admittedly burdensome archaic bureaucratic permit method developed seemingly when parchment and quill pen were in fashion? really? Knock knock MSP, we have these things called computers and databases. Just ask MVA, they'll show you how they work.
Score = miserably inadequate.

-Poorly crafted and misrepresented statistics. And this is being extremely kind.
Score= miserably inadequate.

-Anecdotal storytelling. "There was this guy, yeah, back in 2007, and he shot another guy, and, his brother in law had one of those scary Stand-Your-Groud CCW permits just like Zimmerman, and yeah, guns are bad, it's a license to kill, run away!!"
In a legal brief? As an argument? As one of the main arguments?
Score = miserably inadequate.

That's just my opinion. No wait, it appears to be a vast majority of everyone's opinion.

I was asking, "This is all they have got??"

Now I think I am stating, "THIS is ALL they have got."


The Brady bunch, Bloomberg and all the rest must be wringing hands at this point. A complaint framed strictly within the boundaries of 2A peels away all of their window dressing to reveal they have no furniture in their house. The anti's work well around the fringes of the topic, but at the core, they have very little to offer. Miserably inadequate.

I just expected a lot more from them.

 

[Merlin]

Hypothetically speaking.

You apply for a sales and use tax license. open a business checking account. put 5K in the checking account and spend the next 3 months moving the same cash back and forth from the account various times and various amounts. You file your quarterly and end of year taxes showing 0 profit and 0 tax collected . To the best of anyones knowledge would this be illegal and if so why.

I can imajine they look for this kind of stunts. The quarterly and end of year taxes showing 0 profit and 0 tax collected will be the first tip off. If your a new business they will want to see invoices where you charged someone something as well as bills where you bought something business related to operate your business.

 

[Mr H]

I can imajine they look for this kind of stunts. The quarterly and end of year taxes showing 0 profit and 0 tax collected will be the first tip off. If your a new business they will want to see invoices where you charged someone something as well as bills where you bought something business related to operate your business.

I'm aware of one person (friend of a friend) who obtained his permit using a similar tactic. P&L was irrelevant apparently... just having deposits and withdrawals was enough.

 

[2ndCharter]

I can imajine they look for this kind of stunts. The quarterly and end of year taxes showing 0 profit and 0 tax collected will be the first tip off. If your a new business they will want to see invoices where you charged someone something as well as bills where you bought something business related to operate your business.

To the best of my knowledge they aren't checking tax records. The business purposes route wasn't as difficult as many make it appear. That is, as long as you are legitimate... anything else is fraud.

 

[SkunkWerX]

To the best of my knowledge they aren't checking tax records. The business purposes route wasn't as difficult as many make it appear. That is, as long as you are legitimate... anything else is fraud.

However, we have had folks post in these forums that they were denied as roofer, general contractors, etc. They work in questionable areas, many times alone, they receive checks and cash for services rendered, but have been denied.

It clearly shows that MSP leans toward the storefront shop owner type of business man, and frowns upon a more blue collar profession. "Arbitrary" is still the operable word, and what the fight has been about since day one.

 

[CypherPunk]

To the best of my knowledge they aren't checking tax records. The business purposes route wasn't as difficult as many make it appear. That is, as long as you are legitimate... anything else is fraud.

This brings to mind another way the Maryland State Police licensing scheme is discriminatory, currupt and unlawful (and I think it would be helpful if we all started referring to it as a scheme)...

If I wanted to open a business and trade goods in cash, according to the MSP's licensing scheme, I can't be granted a license until 90 or more days after I have already made several purchases.

Following that logic, I shouldn't have to apply for a business license or pay MD taxes until after I have made several sales, or a drivers license until I have driven at least three times.

 

[Merlin]

I'm aware of one person (friend of a friend) who obtained his permit using a similar tactic. P&L was irrelevant apparently... just having deposits and withdrawals was enough.

How long has he had his ccw?

 

[Merlin]

To the best of my knowledge they aren't checking tax records. The business purposes route wasn't as difficult as many make it appear. That is, as long as you are legitimate... anything else is fraud.

I was wondering. The list of items they tell business owners to provide are IRS Tax returns, invoices, bills, deposits slips. But they do not explain if the have to supply everything or just one or two of the above items.

 

[krucam]

Friendly reminder that there's a Sticky in the MD 2A thread on the permit process and lessons-learned...

HOW to APPLY for a MARYLAND Carry Permit

 

[P-12 Norm]

Actually, the goal would be to spend my money in the most efficient manner as to cost Maryland more that I spend.

Plus, to be honest, I would also sue EACH INDIVDUAL TROOPER that touched the file... With the expressed purpose of ensuring that I can prove damages. That is to say make the officers pay with their pensions...

At some point, one of us is going to going to suffer a tradegy where one of our family members is harmed or killed... At that point this become something that a normal $ value doesn't apply for... And a jury will be very sympathetic toward.

;the MSP had best pray it's not a very wealthy Marylander, or someone that I know...

I think may of us have had excellent and professional experiences with the MSP. However, they ARE acting as foot soliders for the State and that makes them liable.

As I've said before, there is a point at which "I was only following orders" doesn't work.

Following orders is an affirmative defense, so long as the orders given troopers are not obviously illegal. Under those types of circumstances, they can be charged/sued, but in the normal performance of their duties, under which I think most on a jury (or even a judge reviewing a case) would view the processing of permits, they would be shielded from any suit.

 

[Maestro Pistolero]

"The Failure to Enter a Stay Could Result in Harm to Individuals Eligible to Receive a Permit Under Existing Maryland Law."
—Brief of DOUGLAS F. GANSLER Attorney General of Maryland

This makes absolutely no sense. If the judge does NOT grant a stay, why would those individuals be denied a permit? The only harm comes from the issuing authority, and that harm is entirely under the control of the state.

So, if I understand correctly: Defendant's imagined, contrived, and self-created harm to those who meet the current (past) criteria is being elevated above the actual harm to those citizens who have been denied under current law since the law's inception. Hmmm.

 

[Shift]

I'm not so good with all this legal mumbo jumbo so what is the next step in the process here?

 

[tsmith1499]

Personally I think it is a very vague term that can mean anything from opened your envelope to made a decision about your app. Some have said acted on should mean made a decision one way or another.

When the words "acted on" was used maybe that what they intended for it to mean. But again, I also think the term acted on can be misused to mean almost anything they want it to mean.

I agree completely. I think that wording is very ambiguos.